From twibright at hispeed.ch Thu Apr 3 12:19:04 2008 From: twibright at hispeed.ch (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:19:04 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Mail-order tin templates? Message-ID: <28620201.1207221544403.JavaMail.root@viefep17> I wonder how much people would be interested in ordering tin-plated steel tin templates for the RX, TX, Twister2 or Twister boxes (including the mounting brackets). I could make templates roughly cut, exactly cut and exactly cut and drilled, depending on the user's capabilities. Since they are flat, they could be put into a tougher postage envelope. I guess it could save a lot of fuss, one wouldn't have to buy whole sheet of tin or a whole tin box in IKEA, wouldn't need tin shears or even drilling tin. I could speed it up by drilling through several at once. CL< From twibright at hispeed.ch Fri Apr 4 19:17:34 2008 From: twibright at hispeed.ch (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 20:17:34 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Twister2 U63-U65 Message-ID: <28742060.1207333054915.JavaMail.root@viefep18> ---- Sordrag at gmx.de schrieb: > Hi all! > > I'm trying to understand how the Twister works. My problem is the cascade of U63 to U65 (and also the one of U51 and U53). I don't get the idea behind this. I already read the FAQs but they were not enough. The idea is that if a fast signal is pulse extended then the individual pulses blur together and create a steady level. If a slow one is pulse extended they don't blur and stay as a frequency. > > Can anyone explaine me in detail how the identification of data in the signal by the use of the cascades works? U54 is just a buffer. C66 and R52 replace leading edges in the signal with short H impulses and everything else with L. U52 inverts it and on every leading edge of the original signal, U63 gets reset to zeroes on all outputs. On every tick of the 16MHz clock (62.5 ns) one tap gets set to one. That means if the output is on the 5th tap, it gets set from 0 back to 1 after 4-5 ticks, that means after 250-312.5 ns it gets back to H. If the incoming signal has the leading edge pitch less than 250ns, then the output stays permanently in 0. If it has more, then it will contain ones interspersed with zeroes. The Manchester signal has maximum leading edge pitch of 200ns. The silence between the packets takes at least 9600ns. So packets will produce zero on U63-10 and the interframe gaps one. The problem is link integrity pulses will trigger a false packet alarm. Therefore U64 and U65 are there to clean this out. > And why is there the OR (U54) before this cascade? It just works as an inverter and the signal gets inverted back thru U52. Is this necessary? > > And why are there after the RX discriminator (U51, U53) those two Schmitt Triggers of U52. I think if I do the hole cicuit on a PCB I have short wires so those Triggers aren't necessary!? The Schmitt trigger inverters are there to invert the signal. Their Schmitt function is unused. CL< > > Thx for your help. > > Greetz Sord > > > -- > Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? > Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From schneider2000 at web.de Mon Apr 7 23:22:26 2008 From: schneider2000 at web.de (Daniel Schneider) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 00:22:26 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Twister2 U63-U65 In-Reply-To: <28742060.1207333054915.JavaMail.root@viefep18> References: <28742060.1207333054915.JavaMail.root@viefep18> Message-ID: <47FA9EA2.5030400@web.de> Karel Kulhavy schrieb: > ---- Sordrag at gmx.de schrieb: > >> Hi all! >> >> I'm trying to understand how the Twister works. My problem is the cascade of U63 to U65 (and also the one of U51 and U53). I don't get the idea behind this. I already read the FAQs but they were not enough. >> > > The idea is that if a fast signal is pulse extended then the individual pulses blur > together and create a steady level. If a slow one is pulse extended they don't blur > and stay as a frequency. > > >> Can anyone explaine me in detail how the identification of data in the signal by the use of the cascades works? >> > > U54 is just a buffer. C66 and R52 replace leading edges in the signal with short > H impulses and everything else with L. U52 inverts it and on every leading edge of the > original signal, U63 gets reset to zeroes on all outputs. On every tick of the 16MHz clock (62.5 ns) one tap > gets set to one. That means if the output is on the 5th tap, it gets set from > 0 back to 1 after 4-5 ticks, that means after 250-312.5 ns it gets back to H. > > If the incoming signal has the leading edge pitch less than 250ns, then the output stays > permanently in 0. If it has more, then it will contain ones interspersed with zeroes. > > The Manchester signal has maximum leading edge pitch of 200ns. The silence between > the packets takes at least 9600ns. So packets will produce zero on U63-10 and the interframe gaps one. > > The problem is link integrity pulses will trigger a false packet alarm. Therefore U64 and U65 are there to clean this out. > > > > Hi Clock, I also was wondering about how the filtering of the link integrity pulse works. Can you explain this a little bit more detailed. I don't get it with the timing. thx >> And why is there the OR (U54) before this cascade? It just works as an inverter and the signal gets inverted back thru U52. Is this necessary? >> >> And why are there after the RX discriminator (U51, U53) those two Schmitt Triggers of U52. I think if I do the hole cicuit on a PCB I have short wires so those Triggers aren't necessary!? >> > > The Schmitt trigger inverters are there to invert the signal. Their Schmitt function > is unused. > > CL< > >> Thx for your help. >> >> Greetz Sord >> >> >> -- >> Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? >> Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger >> >> -- >> Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com >> Ronja at lists.pointless.net >> http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja >> > > > From pkyaduvanshi at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 03:52:40 2008 From: pkyaduvanshi at gmail.com (Pramod yaduvanshi) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:22:40 +0530 Subject: [Ronja] Replacing Chinese lenses In-Reply-To: <7736653.1206692207030.JavaMail.root@viefep17> References: <7736653.1206692207030.JavaMail.root@viefep17> Message-ID: <50d3ad760804071952n53af45d7vc4a5b3d0d174238c@mail.gmail.com> Well there are many local manufacturers .. But the one i found most useful is this one since he makes them in all the sizes needed : TEJCO MKTG 36, Jay-Kay Estate Shashtri Nagar SantaCruz(West) Mumbai -400 054 email: contactus at tejcomagnifier.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20080408/efdf13eb/attachment.html From pkyaduvanshi at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 04:45:52 2008 From: pkyaduvanshi at gmail.com (Pramod yaduvanshi) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 09:15:52 +0530 Subject: [Ronja] Replacing Chinese lenses In-Reply-To: <50d3ad760803261715w21157453t4f080cab20a8f530@mail.gmail.com> References: <14663849.1206569812006.JavaMail.root@viefep12> <50d3ad760803261715w21157453t4f080cab20a8f530@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50d3ad760804072045g5314ed25j87d8e066e89d9731@mail.gmail.com> Code No Size Description of body Focal length Magnification Magnification in X 101 40mm Brass Frame & Handle 10 cm 10 2.5X 102 50mm Brass Frame & Handle 20 cm 6 1.5X 103 63mm Brass Frame & Handle 20 cm 6 1.5X 104 75mm Brass Frame & Handle 20 cm 5 1.25X 105 90mm Brass Frame & Handle 20 cm 5 1.25X 106 100mm Brass Frame & Handle 20 cm 5 1.25X 107 113mm Brass Frame & Handle 30 cm 5 1.25X 108 125mm Brass Frame & Handle 30 cm 2.5 0.625X 109 150mm Brass Frame & Handle 30 cm 2.5 0.625X This is the list of magnifiers they manufacture and largest one costs just 3 USD -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20080408/9ee77043/attachment.html From twibright at hispeed.ch Tue Apr 8 07:51:55 2008 From: twibright at hispeed.ch (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 8:51:55 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Replacing Chinese lenses Message-ID: <25736510.1207637515894.JavaMail.root@viefep18> ---- Pramod yaduvanshi schrieb: > Code No Size Description of body Focal length Magnification Magnification > in X 101 40mm Brass Frame & Handle 10 cm 10 2.5X 102 50mm Brass Frame & > Handle 20 cm 6 1.5X 103 63mm Brass Frame & Handle 20 cm 6 1.5X 104 75mm Brass > Frame & Handle 20 cm 5 1.25X 105 90mm Brass Frame & Handle 20 cm 5 1.25X 106 > 100mm Brass Frame & Handle 20 cm 5 1.25X 107 113mm Brass Frame & Handle 30 > cm 5 1.25X 108 125mm Brass Frame & Handle 30 cm 2.5 0.625X 109 150mm Brass > Frame & Handle 30 cm 2.5 0.625X This is the list of magnifiers they > manufacture and largest one costs just 3 USD That's very interesting, a 150mm lens! If it has similar parameters as the 130mm Chinese, the distance is increased roughly from 1.4km to 1.6km! I have to send them an e-mail and ask them for retail. 3$ is an excellent price, especially since the frame and handle are brass! CL< From gullik.webjorn at flysta.net Fri Apr 11 22:59:46 2008 From: gullik.webjorn at flysta.net (gullik.webjorn at flysta.net) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:59:46 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Replacing Chinese lenses Message-ID: <3184.1207951186@flysta.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20080411/669adb8f/attachment.html From pkyaduvanshi at gmail.com Sat Apr 12 04:44:21 2008 From: pkyaduvanshi at gmail.com (Pramod yaduvanshi) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:14:21 +0530 Subject: [Ronja] Replacing Chinese lenses In-Reply-To: <3184.1207951186@flysta.net> References: <3184.1207951186@flysta.net> Message-ID: <50d3ad760804112044h5d5c77dqff8cd4f660a6e5c@mail.gmail.com> focal length is 30 cms -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20080412/73e83214/attachment.html From twibright at hispeed.ch Sat Apr 12 13:08:05 2008 From: twibright at hispeed.ch (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:08:05 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Replacing Chinese lenses Message-ID: <1343803.1208002087938.JavaMail.root@viefep14> ---- gullik.webjorn at flysta.net schrieb: > Indeed, 150 mm seems nice, could you find out the focal length? > Gullik It's 300mm according to the posted table. CL< > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From crushhhh at o2.pl Wed Apr 16 14:16:35 2008 From: crushhhh at o2.pl (=?UTF-8?Q?crushhhh?=) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:16:35 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] =?utf-8?q?KjS_PCBs_for_sale?= Message-ID: <1e4af4d4.4588b4e0.4805fc33.c028d@o2.pl> Hi all, I have 12 pcbs for sale. They have been made professionaly from KjS gerber files. All of them have soldermask and holes. I've built many fso links using them, and all have been working very good. There are 6 RX PCBs version 120304, and 6 TX PCBs version 150404 for sale. Let me know if someone is interested in it or not. Kind regards Crush From twibright at hispeed.ch Wed Apr 16 20:50:12 2008 From: twibright at hispeed.ch (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:50:12 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] KjS PCBs for sale Message-ID: <21201200.1208375412894.JavaMail.root@viefep18> ---- crushhhh schrieb: > Hi all, > > I have 12 pcbs for sale. They have been made professionaly from KjS gerber files. All of them have soldermask and holes. I've built many fso links using them, and all have been working very good. There are 6 RX PCBs version 120304, and 6 TX PCBs version 150404 Where are they running? May I have them for the gallery? CL< for sale. Let me know if someone is interested in it or not. > > Kind regards > Crush > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From juan.hectormedina at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 15:06:01 2008 From: juan.hectormedina at gmail.com (Juan Hector Medina) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:06:01 -0000 Subject: [Ronja] Mail-order tin templates? In-Reply-To: <28620201.1207221544403.JavaMail.root@viefep17> References: <28620201.1207221544403.JavaMail.root@viefep17> Message-ID: <33883C74-BF0B-4BC9-BFC1-5640AB47BB46@gmail.com> I will .... Please let me know El 03/04/2008, a las 05:19 AM, Karel Kulhavy escribi?: > I wonder how much people would be interested in ordering tin-plated > steel tin templates for the RX, TX, Twister2 or Twister boxes > (including the mounting brackets). > > I could make templates roughly cut, exactly cut and exactly cut > and drilled, depending on the user's capabilities. Since they are > flat, they could be put into a tougher postage envelope. > > I guess it could save a lot of fuss, one wouldn't have to buy > whole sheet of tin or a whole tin box in IKEA, wouldn't need tin > shears or even drilling tin. I could speed it up by drilling through > several at once. > > CL< > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From ingsadaza at gmail.com Tue Apr 22 00:46:01 2008 From: ingsadaza at gmail.com (Santiago Daza) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:46:01 -0500 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja TWISTER 2 Message-ID: Hello everibody, i?m from Colombia, i need urgently two TWISTER 2 PCB, i want to know, where i can order this modules and how much does it cost? thank you for helping me -- Santiago Daza Garcia. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20080421/01aed61c/attachment.html From twibright at hispeed.ch Tue Apr 22 10:16:42 2008 From: twibright at hispeed.ch (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:16:42 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja TWISTER 2 Message-ID: <25825955.1208855803582.JavaMail.root@viefep17> ---- Santiago Daza schrieb: > Hello everibody, i?m from Colombia, i need urgently two TWISTER 2 PCB, i > want to know, where i can order this modules and how much does it cost? > thank you for helping me http://ronjashop.com You can get there also from the Ronja website by clicking on "where to buy" or something like that. CL< > > -- > Santiago Daza Garcia. From ingsadaza at gmail.com Thu Apr 24 02:16:31 2008 From: ingsadaza at gmail.com (Santiago Daza) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:16:31 -0500 Subject: [Ronja] Electronic Parts Message-ID: Hello, today i was triying to buy the electronic parts of Ronja, but here, is dificult to find some of this elements, i have a question, can i replace the metallic (blue) resistors for brown resistors?? i know that the blue resistors have more precision, but here in Medellin is imposibble to find them. The second question is: i didn?t find the twister2 electronic parts in their respective package, example: i found them in DIL packages, can i use the DIL package elements, or is incorrect?? -- Santiago Daza Garcia. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20080423/da6dc336/attachment.html From twibright at hispeed.ch Thu Apr 24 09:38:14 2008 From: twibright at hispeed.ch (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:38:14 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Electronic Parts Message-ID: <30539525.1209026294800.JavaMail.root@viefep17> ---- Santiago Daza schrieb: > Hello, today i was triying to buy the electronic parts of Ronja, but here, > is dificult to find some of this elements, i have a question, can i replace > the metallic (blue) resistors for brown resistors?? i know that the blue > resistors have more precision, but here in Medellin is imposibble to find > them. Yes use the brown ones. > > The second question is: i didn?t find the twister2 electronic parts in their > respective package, example: i found them in DIL packages, can i use the DIL > package elements, or is incorrect?? if you are able to somehow solder them down to the PCB with thin wires then yes. Try to have the ground pin as short as possible and place the blocking capacitor (the one between +5V and ground) over the chip if practical. CL< > -- > Santiago Daza Garcia. From paplociennik at gmail.com Thu Apr 24 10:32:00 2008 From: paplociennik at gmail.com (Pawel Plociennik) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:32:00 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] comlete of a ronja instalation is 100$ or 2x100$ ? Message-ID: <200804241132.00575.paplociennik@gmail.com> Hi everybody *hardware* hackers, I have read a http://ronja.twibright.com/about.php and I do not know that 100$ material cost is *only* one ronja or it is a complete of a two ronjas. can somebody explained me that ;) ps: sorry for my English but it is not a my native language ;( thanks, Pawel Plociennik Poland From twibright at hispeed.ch Thu Apr 24 16:48:03 2008 From: twibright at hispeed.ch (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:48:03 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] comlete of a ronja instalation is 100$ or 2x100$ ? Message-ID: <592189.1209052083673.JavaMail.root@viefep17> ---- Pawel Plociennik schrieb: > Hi everybody *hardware* hackers, > > I have read a http://ronja.twibright.com/about.php and > I do not know that 100$ material cost is *only* one > ronja or it is a complete of a two ronjas. It's only one Ronja. For a complete link you need 200$. It can be actually different because the prices change with time and place. CL< > > can somebody explained me that ;) > > ps: sorry for my English but it is not a my native > language ;( > > thanks, > Pawel Plociennik > Poland > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From paplociennik at gmail.com Thu Apr 24 17:41:19 2008 From: paplociennik at gmail.com (Pawel Plociennik) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:41:19 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] comlete of a ronja instalation is 100$ or 2x100$ ? In-Reply-To: <592189.1209052083673.JavaMail.root@viefep17> References: <592189.1209052083673.JavaMail.root@viefep17> Message-ID: <200804241841.19502.paplociennik@gmail.com> On Thursday 24 April 2008 17:48, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > It's only one Ronja. For a complete link you need 200$. It can > be actually different because the prices change with time and place. I have supposed that but I were not sure however I think it is not that much if we compare it to a *professional* ;) FSO hardware which costs about 6000$ :) Thanks Karel you have made that great free (free as a freedom not as a beer) hardware project such as Ronja exactly :) ps: I have one question for you Karel, have you thought about found the Free Hardware Foundation (FHF) as equivalent of the Free Software Foundation (FSF) as you are a fist person on the world which have made that free hardware project ? ;) regards, Pawel Plociennik From paplociennik at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 16:21:06 2008 From: paplociennik at gmail.com (Pawel Plociennik) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:21:06 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Problem with opening a gerber file *grb by a berbv program :( Message-ID: <200804251721.07350.paplociennik@gmail.com> Hi, I have trying in a gerbv program to open a gerber file (for example a twister2.pcb.output_back.gbr from a twister2 packet) it is failed by this below error : "Error: eval: unbound variable: g04" I have trying resolve this problem but I have not resolved it and I do not know what this means ;( Can somebody tell me how resolve this problem ? thanks, Pawel Plociennik From schum at seznam.cz Tue Apr 29 12:21:49 2008 From: schum at seznam.cz (schumann miroslav) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:21:49 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] IO do zdroje twistru2 Message-ID: <003801c8a9eb$39092b10$fa01a8c0@mirek> Ahoj v?ichni tak jeste jednou pro ty stavitele twistr?2, mam tady navic cca 15ks LM2671M-5.0, cena 90 K?/kus Mirek ------------- dal?? ??st --------------- HTML p??loha byla odstran?na... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20080429/274e8fe1/attachment.html From twibright at hispeed.ch Wed Apr 30 11:32:04 2008 From: twibright at hispeed.ch (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:32:04 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Miraculous soldering: tartaric acid Message-ID: <19844318.1209551524922.JavaMail.root@viefep17> Tartaric acid (weinsaeure, kyselina vinna) is a natural acid from wine. It's sold as white crystals for home conserving food. I tried it for soldering instead of colophonium directly in crystalic form. It melts on hot soldering iron. Tins heavily oxidized copper and nickel plated connector instantly. Then I tried some M6 bolt not sure if zinced or nickeled was also almost instant, extremely shiny and you couldn't tell the boundary between tinned and untinned part. Doesn't work on aluminium foil. I wonder if someone has this acid at home as well and want to try, what experience he gets. CL< From kubajz at kbx.cz Wed Apr 30 11:42:11 2008 From: kubajz at kbx.cz (Kubajz) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:42:11 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Miraculous soldering: tartaric acid In-Reply-To: <19844318.1209551524922.JavaMail.root@viefep17> References: <19844318.1209551524922.JavaMail.root@viefep17> Message-ID: <48184D03.7010003@kbx.cz> This sounds great. Soldering on zinc was a kind of nightmare for me. I will try it next week... K Karel Kulhavy napsal(a): > Tartaric acid (weinsaeure, kyselina vinna) is a natural acid > from wine. It's sold as white crystals for home conserving > food. > > I tried it for soldering instead of colophonium directly in crystalic > form. It melts on hot soldering iron. Tins heavily > oxidized copper and nickel plated connector instantly. Then I > tried some M6 bolt not sure if zinced or nickeled was also > almost instant, extremely shiny and you couldn't tell the boundary > between tinned and untinned part. Doesn't work on aluminium foil. > > I wonder if someone has this acid at home as well and want to try, > what experience he gets. > > CL< > > From gullik.webjorn at flysta.net Wed Apr 30 21:55:06 2008 From: gullik.webjorn at flysta.net (gullik.webjorn at flysta.net) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:55:06 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Miraculous soldering: aluminum Message-ID: <3596.1209588906@flysta.net> More miracles.... Aluminum can be soldered with ordinary resin flux solder with he following procedure: 1 clean aluminum while covered with mineral oil using emery paper 2 with oil still covering the aluminum tin the surface using a soldeing iron and resin-core solder 3 once the aluminum is tinned, it can be cleaned, and processed similar to brass or copper It is imperative that the surface is covered with mineral oil until tinned, since any oxygen will immediately oxidize the surface and AlO2 repells tin solder, while Al and tin are compatible Gullik BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } On Wed 30/04/08 12:42 PM , Kubajz kubajz at kbx.cz sent: This sounds great. Soldering on zinc was a kind of nightmare for me. I will try it next week... K Karel Kulhavy napsal(a): > Tartaric acid (weinsaeure, kyselina vinna) is a natural acid > from wine. It's sold as white crystals for home conserving > food. > > I tried it for soldering instead of colophonium directly in crystalic > form. It melts on hot soldering iron. Tins heavily > oxidized copper and nickel plated connector instantly. Then I > tried some M6 bolt not sure if zinced or nickeled was also > almost instant, extremely shiny and you couldn't tell the boundary > between tinned and untinned part. Doesn't work on aluminium foil. > > I wonder if someone has this acid at home as well and want to try, > what experience he gets. > > CL< > > -- Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com [1] Ronja at lists.pointless.net [2] http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja [3] Links: ------ [1] http://ronja.twibright.com [2] mailto:Ronja at lists.pointless.net [3] http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20080430/55e315a6/attachment.html