From clock at twibright.com Wed Nov 1 07:07:36 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 08:07:36 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] TX problem In-Reply-To: References: <45462801.6030901@o2.pl> Message-ID: <20061101070736.GA11552@kestrel.twibright.com> On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 05:39:28PM +0200, J.D. Bakker wrote: > >Hi, > > > >I'm having trouble setting up my TX. I built it according to Ronja > >guide. The only change was multi-rotary trimmers where normally R8 and > >R11 is. I've put 50k trimmer to adjust preemphasis circuit, and 10R > >trimmer to adjust LED current. I didn't put trimmers into Ronja because they are unreliable - they have bad contact. Maybe this is your problem. Do it according to the instructions and say if it still doesn't work. CL< > > What kind of 10R trimmer do you use ? Some are wirewound and thus inductive. > > An easy experiment is to replace this trimmer with a fixed 10R > resistor. Total output may be lower, but at least yuo can test if > this fixes the RSSI problem. > > >Anyway I observe RSSI loss during data transfer. It is about 0,7V lower > >than in IDLE state. What may be wrong in my circuit? I double checked > >all elements interconnections and values. Maybe its receiver problem? > > That might still be the case, but I'd try the resistor replacement anyway ;-) > > JDB. > -- > LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. > http://www.lartmaker.nl/ > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Wed Nov 1 07:09:55 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 08:09:55 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] TX problem In-Reply-To: <45462801.6030901@o2.pl> References: <45462801.6030901@o2.pl> Message-ID: <20061101070955.GB11552@kestrel.twibright.com> On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 05:27:45PM +0100, Bartosz Kolodziejczak wrote: > Hi, > > I'm having trouble setting up my TX. I built it according to Ronja > guide. The only change was multi-rotary trimmers where normally R8 and > R11 is. I've put 50k trimmer to adjust preemphasis circuit, and 10R > trimmer to adjust LED current. I connected multimeter set to 200mA > across 74hc04 and HPWT-BD00-F4000. I set current to 68mA, then performed > duty cycle test with ping. I also managed to set same current values > during IDLE and during DATA FLOW. > > Anyway I observe RSSI loss during data transfer. It is about 0,7V lower > than in IDLE state. What may be wrong in my circuit? I double checked > all elements interconnections and values. Maybe its receiver problem? This is normal. The RSSI shows less when data are coming through. How did you come to the idea it's wrong? The purpose of RSSI is to aid in aiming. However it's not nice, it's a bit annoying. I am currenty working on a receiver rework with an aim to get rid of the NE592 chip for several reasons. The RSSI mechanism I want to use is principially different one and shouldn't have this problem. I hope it's going to work. CL< > > Any ideas would be much appreciated. > > Thanks > Crush > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Wed Nov 1 07:10:35 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 08:10:35 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] HPWT-BD00-F400 In-Reply-To: <000601c6fc42$d2464720$c701a8c0@bilbo> References: <000601c6fc42$d2464720$c701a8c0@bilbo> Message-ID: <20061101071035.GC11552@kestrel.twibright.com> On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 05:45:34PM +0100, G.M. Mourits wrote: > Can anyone help me out. > I?m trying to by the HPWT-BD00-F400. > In the Netherlands there seems to be no one who can deliver those devices. > Several distributors (RSComponents, Farnell) can deliver but only for > something like 300 Euro?s. > I've walked through the Ronja database and contacted several inviduals. > The best I could get was the HPWT-BD00-E4000. > But I really want the HPWT-BD00-F4000. Ondrej Tesar Prague Czech Republic boza2 at volny.cz CL< > Where can I get these ? > > Thanks ahead. > > Gerard Mourits? > > WiFiSoft > > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From ladmanj at volny.cz Wed Nov 1 07:26:55 2006 From: ladmanj at volny.cz (Jakub Ladman) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 08:26:55 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] TX problem In-Reply-To: References: <45462801.6030901@o2.pl> Message-ID: <200611010826.55600.ladmanj@volny.cz> How much power may dissipate the trimmer? I think, if it is not wire wound trimmer (it is too small to be), it must be cermet or carbon trimmer, both have small power allowed. In the case, if 68mA square wave is floating through this trimmer, set to 8Ohms, the power dissipation will be (68e-3 * 8)/2 = 272mW. I am in the conviction that it is too much for the trimmer. Jakub PS: I have doubts about the setting of LED current flow and its influence to DC part of signal. The only case it may vary on current flow, if 74HC04's switching properties are changing wih. (and if they are, they are not as good as we need for LED driving) Dne pond?l? 30 ??jen 2006 16:39 J.D. Bakker napsal(a): > >Hi, > > > >I'm having trouble setting up my TX. I built it according to Ronja > >guide. The only change was multi-rotary trimmers where normally R8 and > >R11 is. I've put 50k trimmer to adjust preemphasis circuit, and 10R > >trimmer to adjust LED current. > > What kind of 10R trimmer do you use ? Some are wirewound and thus > inductive. > > An easy experiment is to replace this trimmer with a fixed 10R > resistor. Total output may be lower, but at least yuo can test if > this fixes the RSSI problem. > > >Anyway I observe RSSI loss during data transfer. It is about 0,7V lower > >than in IDLE state. What may be wrong in my circuit? I double checked > >all elements interconnections and values. Maybe its receiver problem? > > That might still be the case, but I'd try the resistor replacement anyway > ;-) > > JDB. > -- > LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. > http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From clock at twibright.com Wed Nov 1 09:35:50 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:35:50 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] list of people / ronja parts In-Reply-To: <000a01c6fce4$5aac4460$c701a8c0@bilbo> References: <20061031114447.GA22202@kestrel.twibright.com> <000a01c6fce4$5aac4460$c701a8c0@bilbo> Message-ID: <20061101093550.GA21123@kestrel.twibright.com> On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 01:01:49PM +0100, G.M. Mourits wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 07:56:35PM +0100, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > > > On 10/30/06, G.M. Mourits wrote: > > > > Can anyone help me out. > > > > I'm trying to by the HPWT-BD00-F400. > > > > In the Netherlands there seems to be no one who can deliver those > > devices. > > > > Several distributors (RSComponents, Farnell) can deliver but only for > > > > something like 300 Euro's. > > > > I've walked through the Ronja database and contacted several > > inviduals. > > > > The best I could get was the HPWT-BD00-E4000. > > > > But I really want the HPWT-BD00-F4000. > > > > > > I have bought six pieces from Ondrej Tesar weak ago. Send him an email > > > if he could send them internationally by post. Price is 25CZK for one > > > piece. > > > > Do you think it would be a good idea to make an official page with a list > > of people who are reliably known to offer Ronja parts like Ronjashop with > > PCB's and Ondrej Tesar with the LEDs and link it directly from the guides? > > > This seems a great challenge. > I am creating a manual to step-by-step build the Ronja so every start-up can > work with it...., If your in the movement you should understand the website The manual is already at http://ronja.twibright.com If you think it's not step-by-step, it's better if you write me which parts are not step-by-step enough or improve the existing manual than if you write your own version. CL< > but it looks like it's a growing phenomenon with the symptoms of getting out > of control. > It's very easy to link these to any supplier what so ever (but a lot of > work). > I think there are lot's of people out here who have to buy 50 peaces instead > of the 1 they really need. So let's help each other out here. > > Gerard > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Wed Nov 1 10:20:01 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:20:01 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] HPWT-BD00-F400 In-Reply-To: References: <000601c6fc42$d2464720$c701a8c0@bilbo> <20061031114447.GA22202@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: <20061101102001.GA31472@kestrel.twibright.com> On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 11:19:21PM +0100, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > On 10/31/06, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 07:56:35PM +0100, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > > > On 10/30/06, G.M. Mourits wrote: > > > > Can anyone help me out. > > > > I'm trying to by the HPWT-BD00-F400. > > > > In the Netherlands there seems to be no one who can deliver those devices. > > > > Several distributors (RSComponents, Farnell) can deliver but only for > > > > something like 300 Euro's. > > > > I've walked through the Ronja database and contacted several inviduals. > > > > The best I could get was the HPWT-BD00-E4000. > > > > But I really want the HPWT-BD00-F4000. > > > > > > I have bought six pieces from Ondrej Tesar weak ago. Send him an email > > > if he could send them internationally by post. Price is 25CZK for one > > > piece. > > > > Do you think it would be a good idea to make an official page with a list > > of people who are reliably known to offer Ronja parts like Ronjashop with > > PCB's and Ondrej Tesar with the LEDs and link it directly from the guides? > > > > CL< > > I thought all this information is already on the RonjaWiki, isn't it? > And linking it directly from the guides? Why not? Yes, but the RonjaWiki is crap - it is full of Cialis and Viagra. And I don't have time to manually remove all the shit and I don't want to devote time figuring out if there exists a configuration of the Wiki that is immune to this kind of attack. Wiki, as any high-level system glued together from bits and pieces found somewhere on the web, is usually designed carelessly without regard to security. I already had problem with TWiki - I had to frequently apply security patches which were difficult to apply because the installation instructions were botched, and it got finally hackedi anyway, detected by the web hoster and disabled. So it looks like the best wiki is no wiki. Wikipedia maybe has a team of people to take care of problems on their mediawiki, but I would rather like to tinker with capacitors and transistors instead of spending time on problems of wiki which were arbitrarily created by a decision to implement a bad security design. People tend to write inaccurate information on wiki anway and then I get unnecessary support requests which are taking time too. Therefore it's better if I make a page with the information I believe is correct. This way I can at least have control over the level of crap that is causing the support requests. > > But i'm not sure if RonjaShop is still reliable. I'm affraid it has > already died. Why do you think it has died? If it has died it's time to not put it on the pages to prevent people sending money and then getting nothing, or at least wasting time trying to contact the nonexisting shop. The most frequent kinds of information on the Internet according to my estimate: 1) spam 2) advertisement 3) dead links 4) deliberate lies 5) inadvertently inaccurate information 6) information for which it doesn't make sense to talk about true or false 7) information which is true but has little relevance for the reader 8) information which was true but is obsolete 9) information which is true, has relevance, but is repeated many times in many other places, in various stages of obsolescence Someone called this "a battle for the reader's attention" :) CL< > > Honza > > > > > -- > > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From bartosz_kolodziejczak at o2.pl Wed Nov 1 11:43:35 2006 From: bartosz_kolodziejczak at o2.pl (Bartosz Kolodziejczak) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 12:43:35 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] TX problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45488867.7030200@o2.pl> Thanks for all who gave their opinion. Trimmer isn't good idea, but isn't bad too. I'll replace it by resistor for sure. I was just wondering why RSSI drop is so high during data transfer. I thought first it was preemphasis problem in TX module. It isn't, so Clock is right - its pretty normal for such an RX design. I'm fine with that for now. Thanks a lof folks! Crush From hnizdil at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 18:34:24 2006 From: hnizdil at gmail.com (Honza Hnizdil) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 19:34:24 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] HPWT-BD00-F400 In-Reply-To: <20061101102001.GA31472@kestrel.twibright.com> References: <000601c6fc42$d2464720$c701a8c0@bilbo> <20061031114447.GA22202@kestrel.twibright.com> <20061101102001.GA31472@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: On 11/1/06, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 11:19:21PM +0100, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > > On 10/31/06, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 07:56:35PM +0100, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > > > > On 10/30/06, G.M. Mourits wrote: > > > > > Can anyone help me out... > > > > > > > > I have bought ... > > > > > > Do you think it ... > > > > > > CL< > > > > I thought all this information is already on the RonjaWiki, isn't it? > > And linking it directly from the guides? Why not? > > Yes, but the RonjaWiki is crap... > > > > > But i'm not sure if RonjaShop is still reliable. I'm affraid it has > > already died. > > Why do you think it has died? If it has died it's time to not put it on > the pages to prevent people sending money and then getting nothing, or > at least wasting time trying to contact the nonexisting shop. Because i placed an order for two twister PCBs about two weeks ago and no reply haven't came back by now. And after reading thread http://www.pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/2005-October/007690.html I wasn't suprised at all. I know it's quite obsolete nevertheless I'm affraid the situation descibed in that thread still persists. Honza > > The most frequent kinds of information on the Internet according to my estimate: > 1) spam > 2) advertisement > 3) dead links > 4) deliberate lies > 5) inadvertently inaccurate information > 6) information for which it doesn't make sense to talk about true or false > 7) information which is true but has little relevance for the reader > 8) information which was true but is obsolete > 9) information which is true, has relevance, but is repeated many times in many > other places, in various stages of obsolescence > > Someone called this "a battle for the reader's attention" :) > > CL< > > > > Honza From hnizdil at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 18:46:18 2006 From: hnizdil at gmail.com (Honza Hnizdil) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 19:46:18 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] 130mm Loupe Message-ID: Hi all, did you know about (http://www.skladove-vyprodeje.cz/katalog.php?search=lupa)? 130mm loupe costs 40CZK if you byu it 'cash-on-delivery' and 70CZK in their shop near Hradec Kralove. Honza From clock at twibright.com Thu Nov 2 14:18:14 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 15:18:14 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] HPWT-BD00-F400 In-Reply-To: References: <000601c6fc42$d2464720$c701a8c0@bilbo> <20061031114447.GA22202@kestrel.twibright.com> <20061101102001.GA31472@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: <20061102141814.GA14351@kestrel.twibright.com> On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 07:34:24PM +0100, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > On 11/1/06, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 11:19:21PM +0100, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > > > On 10/31/06, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 07:56:35PM +0100, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > > > > > On 10/30/06, G.M. Mourits wrote: > > > > > > Can anyone help me out... > > > > > > > > > > I have bought ... > > > > > > > > Do you think it ... > > > > > > > > CL< > > > > > > I thought all this information is already on the RonjaWiki, isn't it? > > > And linking it directly from the guides? Why not? > > > > Yes, but the RonjaWiki is crap... > > > > > > > > But i'm not sure if RonjaShop is still reliable. I'm affraid it has > > > already died. > > > > Why do you think it has died? If it has died it's time to not put it on > > the pages to prevent people sending money and then getting nothing, or > > at least wasting time trying to contact the nonexisting shop. > > Because i placed an order for two twister PCBs about two weeks ago and > no reply haven't came back by now. And after reading thread > http://www.pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/2005-October/007690.html I > wasn't suprised at all. I know it's quite obsolete nevertheless I'm > affraid the situation descibed in that thread still persists. Did you pay anything? That's the advantage of a free design - if the shop sucks, you just e-mail an order into a PCB factory and tell them "2 Twisters please". It costs you more but you are sure you always get it, as long as there are any PCB factories on this planet. Or you ask them to make 20 pieces and then try to sell the rest with profit and get the money back :) CL< > > Honza > > > > > The most frequent kinds of information on the Internet according to my estimate: > > 1) spam > > 2) advertisement > > 3) dead links > > 4) deliberate lies > > 5) inadvertently inaccurate information > > 6) information for which it doesn't make sense to talk about true or false > > 7) information which is true but has little relevance for the reader > > 8) information which was true but is obsolete > > 9) information which is true, has relevance, but is repeated many times in many > > other places, in various stages of obsolescence > > > > Someone called this "a battle for the reader's attention" :) > > > > CL< > > > > > > Honza > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From hnizdil at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 15:12:15 2006 From: hnizdil at gmail.com (Honza Hnizdil) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:12:15 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] HPWT-BD00-F400 In-Reply-To: <20061102141814.GA14351@kestrel.twibright.com> References: <000601c6fc42$d2464720$c701a8c0@bilbo> <20061031114447.GA22202@kestrel.twibright.com> <20061101102001.GA31472@kestrel.twibright.com> <20061102141814.GA14351@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: On 11/2/06, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 07:34:24PM +0100, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > > On 11/1/06, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 11:19:21PM +0100, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > > > > On 10/31/06, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 07:56:35PM +0100, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > > > > > > On 10/30/06, G.M. Mourits wrote: > > > > > > > Can anyone help me out... > > > > > > > > > > > > I have bought ... > > > > > > > > > > Do you think it ... > > > > > > > > > > CL< > > > > > > > > I thought all this information is already on the RonjaWiki, isn't it? > > > > And linking it directly from the guides? Why not? > > > > > > Yes, but the RonjaWiki is crap... > > > > > > > > > > > But i'm not sure if RonjaShop is still reliable. I'm affraid it has > > > > already died. > > > > > > Why do you think it has died? If it has died it's time to not put it on > > > the pages to prevent people sending money and then getting nothing, or > > > at least wasting time trying to contact the nonexisting shop. > > > > Because i placed an order for two twister PCBs about two weeks ago and > > no reply haven't came back by now. And after reading thread > > http://www.pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/2005-October/007690.html I > > wasn't suprised at all. I know it's quite obsolete nevertheless I'm > > affraid the situation descibed in that thread still persists. > > Did you pay anything? Fortunately i didn't. I live near Prague so I chose to take twisters of personally. Honza > > That's the advantage of a free design - if the shop sucks, you just e-mail > an order into a PCB factory and tell them "2 Twisters please". It costs you > more but you are sure you always get it, as long as there are any PCB > factories on this planet. > > Or you ask them to make 20 pieces and then try to sell the rest with profit and > get the money back :) > > CL< > > > > Honza > > > > > > > > The most frequent kinds of information on the Internet according to my estimate: > > > 1) spam > > > 2) advertisement > > > 3) dead links > > > 4) deliberate lies > > > 5) inadvertently inaccurate information > > > 6) information for which it doesn't make sense to talk about true or false > > > 7) information which is true but has little relevance for the reader > > > 8) information which was true but is obsolete > > > 9) information which is true, has relevance, but is repeated many times in many > > > other places, in various stages of obsolescence > > > > > > Someone called this "a battle for the reader's attention" :) > > > > > > CL< > > > > > > > > Honza > > > > -- > > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > From ladmanj at volny.cz Sat Nov 4 13:49:06 2006 From: ladmanj at volny.cz (Jakub Ladman) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 14:49:06 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] 130mm Loupe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200611041449.06557.ladmanj@volny.cz> Kdo mi to tu Loupe stotriceti milimetrovej pernicek? J. Dne st?eda 01 listopad 2006 19:46 Honza Hnizdil napsal(a): > Hi all, > did you know about > (http://www.skladove-vyprodeje.cz/katalog.php?search=lupa)? 130mm > loupe costs 40CZK if you byu it 'cash-on-delivery' and 70CZK in their > shop near Hradec Kralove. > > Honza From yurij at sestr.spb.ru Sat Nov 4 18:55:26 2006 From: yurij at sestr.spb.ru (Yurij E. Zagranichnij) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 21:55:26 +0300 Subject: [Ronja] Buying Ronja Message-ID: <1492829985.20061104215526@sestr.spb.ru> Hello! I'm interested in byuing Ronja. Can anyone help? -- Yurij From jdb at lartmaker.nl Sat Nov 4 19:23:31 2006 From: jdb at lartmaker.nl (J.D. Bakker) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 20:23:31 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Buying Ronja In-Reply-To: <1492829985.20061104215526@sestr.spb.ru> References: <1492829985.20061104215526@sestr.spb.ru> Message-ID: >Hello! > > I'm interested in byuing Ronja. Can anyone help? First result from http://www.google.com/search?q=buying+ronja : http://ronja.twibright.com/buyronja.php HTH, HAND. JDB. [you may also want to read http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html] -- LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From clock at twibright.com Sat Nov 4 19:28:37 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 20:28:37 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Lots o' transistors (was gEDA-user: Pointer to 3d CAD?) In-Reply-To: References: <0611012258.AA21055@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <1162427739.4925.64.camel@linux.site> <5DA051F9-3FB4-4A5E-9BE5-2843470FB5CF@neurotica.com> <200611020358.kA23w1ee010811@envy.delorie.com> <20061102134451.GB2112@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: <20061104192837.GA1825@kestrel.twibright.com> On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 11:01:32PM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > [You wrote, on gEDA-user:] > > >Only now I discovered the beauty of symmetric limiting amplifiers, current > >sources and cascode configuration. > > What, you mean like > > http://www.lartmaker.nl/ct-rx-limamp2.png > > ? ;-) > > This is one of the three implementation options that I have for the > 100MHz-link. Still waiting for Taiwan, who are apparently still > waiting for some parts... Well, it's suspiciously similar to what I am doing for 10Mbps with 2N3904's :) But you have the cascode only on input. The cascode rulez. It oscillates on 500MHz with transistors that stop amplifying beyond 300MHz. My amplifier currently has problems amplifying 10Mbps fast enough, but oscillating at 500MHz doesn't make him the slightest problem. I am even getting full output swing on those 500MHz oscillations! I should next time add the blockage between the voltage level feeds :) I see there are people around who know how to design hardware and not just I ordered a 60-pieces-minum ASIC, made a crappy implementation of the recommended circuit from datasheet, and now I will publish it as the next generation of Ronja. What are the transistors? BFR91 or BFR93? Why do you have 10n-virtual L-10n-virtual L-1n-real L-1n+10n filter sequence for *each* stage? Is your amplifier so horny that it would suffer spontaneous orgasms without it? What is the purpose of the 12R-12R stage? Limitation? If yes, please remove the 12R-12R with a 100nF capacitor or so and add 2 current mirrors. Your circuit (the old crappy default Ronja one) has 2 disadvantages: 1) When the transistors are not matches, the signal gets cut away from the middle, becomes less sexually attractive, and the NIC easily refuses to mate with it (reduced range). 2) When it goes into limitation, one transistor cuts off. The other transistor goes high high up in the sky and increases the voltage on the emitter resistor. So it goes "beyond" the limitation and produces actually a distorted signal on the output. The 6 transistors are an ultimate "holy" unit for one stage. My amplifier will have 3 stages, or holy trinity, of 6-6-6 transistors :) Why is the end stage implemented in PNP? Do you fear propping it against +12V instead of ground would result in residual garbage from the 12V to get out on the line? Are PNP faster than NPN? Are they slower? What PNPs are you using? I just hope my enthusiasm in building a better 10Mbps RX before making an SMD box won't end up in hitting some hidden problem I didn't think about and realizing that my "ingenious" construction is a piece of crap. And btw what is the R64 for? Kudos for the cool circuit :) CL< > > All transistors are SOT-23, all passives are 0805 with nice large > footprints for hand soldering. I have no doubt that this can be done > with through-holes at 10MHz, I once built an FM-transmitter with > through-hole using BC547s. > > Why did you have six transistors in the second stage, and not the first ? > > >Transistors are cheap. Transistors are fast. Transistors have almost > >unlimited > >operating temperature range. > > Transistors do have some ... interesting parameter variations, both > between batches and with temperature. Not as bad as FETs, and there > are ways to deal with them. > > Looking forward to seeing your design, > > JDB. > -- > LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. > http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From clock at twibright.com Sat Nov 4 19:52:11 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 20:52:11 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] 130mm Loupe In-Reply-To: <200611041449.06557.ladmanj@volny.cz> References: <200611041449.06557.ladmanj@volny.cz> Message-ID: <20061104195211.GA12703@kestrel.twibright.com> On Sat, Nov 04, 2006 at 02:49:06PM +0100, Jakub Ladman wrote: > Kdo mi to tu Loupe stotriceti milimetrovej pernicek? I discovered the 130mm Chinese loupe is in workplace lamps with integrated loupe. And sometimes they sell the bare lens for ridiculous price (about 20x more) as replacement part. The lens looks exactly like the Chinese 130mm loupe lens I am used to from Ronja. We have this lamp in work. Including the window-pane-grade-glass bluish tint and familiar shape of the lens edges. Some people have the idea that if everyone will buy things and sell them more expensive, everyone will be able to make money and buy food without actually moving their both-left hands. However a detailed analysis shows this cannot work if everyone does that ;-) CL< > J. > Dne st?eda 01 listopad 2006 19:46 Honza Hnizdil napsal(a): > > Hi all, > > did you know about > > (http://www.skladove-vyprodeje.cz/katalog.php?search=lupa)? 130mm > > loupe costs 40CZK if you byu it 'cash-on-delivery' and 70CZK in their > > shop near Hradec Kralove. > > > > Honza > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From yurij at sestr.spb.ru Sat Nov 4 19:53:39 2006 From: yurij at sestr.spb.ru (Yurij E. Zagranichnij) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 22:53:39 +0300 Subject: [Ronja] Buying Ronja In-Reply-To: References: <1492829985.20061104215526@sestr.spb.ru> Message-ID: <117110847.20061104225339@sestr.spb.ru> >>Hello! >> >> I'm interested in byuing Ronja. Can anyone help? JDB> First result from http://www.google.com/search?q=buying+ronja : JDB> http://ronja.twibright.com/buyronja.php Thank you. I have already read this page. The only thing i have found is that somebody is selling PSBs in Czech Republic. But I'm interested in getting complete working Ronja for testing. Probably, someone on this list can sell one? Thank you for your attention! JDB> HTH, HAND. JDB> JDB. JDB> [you may also want to read JDB> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html] -- Yurij From kendy at hkfree.org Sat Nov 4 20:00:22 2006 From: kendy at hkfree.org (Kendy) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 21:00:22 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] 130mm Loupe In-Reply-To: <200611041449.06557.ladmanj@volny.cz> References: <200611041449.06557.ladmanj@volny.cz> Message-ID: <454CF156.5080203@hkfree.org> Mas nejake lepsi ? :D Jakub Ladman napsal(a): > Kdo mi to tu Loupe stotriceti milimetrovej pernicek? > J. > Dne st?eda 01 listopad 2006 19:46 Honza Hnizdil napsal(a): > >>Hi all, >>did you know about >>(http://www.skladove-vyprodeje.cz/katalog.php?search=lupa)? 130mm >>loupe costs 40CZK if you byu it 'cash-on-delivery' and 70CZK in their >>shop near Hradec Kralove. >> >>Honza > > From hnizdil at gmail.com Sun Nov 5 00:54:26 2006 From: hnizdil at gmail.com (Honza Hnizdil) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 01:54:26 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Buying Ronja In-Reply-To: <1492829985.20061104215526@sestr.spb.ru> References: <1492829985.20061104215526@sestr.spb.ru> Message-ID: I'm affraid if somebody would build ronja for you, the price would be much higher, than building it yourself. Honza On 11/4/06, Yurij E. Zagranichnij wrote: > Hello! > > I'm interested in byuing Ronja. Can anyone help? > > -- > Yurij > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > From antitron at web.de Sun Nov 5 23:51:42 2006 From: antitron at web.de (Thomas Egenhofer) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 00:51:42 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] where's the noise comming from=) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1162770702.8010.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> (this is NOT about a Ronja receiver problem, but about some things you might want to know about when design the "next" ronja receiver) if you have no interest in doing so.. you might as well stop reading here and waste your time with something else^^ noise noise and even more noise in receivers.. and if you eliminated one noise-source another one just pops out...so where is all the noise comming from? just my small experience and perhaps some ideas to make the receiver a "little" bit more sensitive and increase the link-distance :) thought this does not directly affect ronja i still think the future receiver designs will profit from some of this. i 'm no "expert" of any kind so dont bet on my word but these are all pratical experiences i made an there are things which i didnt find in any of my textbooks nor the net. after i spend month of researching testing and building my own receiver (not ronja's but a more standar-transistor like aproach) . my main noise sources where of course the environment (solved with propper shielding),noise from the power supply (got rid of it with capacitor-resistor combinations. so far nothing new, ronja does the same to solve these problems. well there where more noise sources and (other issues i had with my receiver) which almost made me go crazy cause i needed months to find some of them: so here's the top ten..(or better.. 4) 1: of course amplified noise between amplifiers. more detailed the noise which was amplified in the first stage and second and so on... my simple solution. high-pass to get rid of most of it.I'm pretty shure the current ronja receiver does not suffer from this but would if you increase the amplification. i successfully got rid of everything else than my signal just with one high-pass (rc-combination) . still somewhat works even without shielding. 2: noise from the signal itself.. when using simple transistors in emitter-wiring and you grep the base-current over a resistor from the collector you can get feedback.. thats nice in 1 stage but not with 3. so my signal ran from the end of stage 3 over 3resistors back to the first and was amplified again.. of course it starts to oscillate. found a nice way to avoid this one ,too. (ronja's receiver does not seem to be cursed by this phenomen since the signal cant run backwards through the video-ic) 3: now this is intresting =) because it most likely affect the current ronja receiver,too and depending on your power supply it really is a mean one... well it's the gnd line of the power supply. usualy one would assume a gnd line as quite stable. because if you use a a scope or whatever it appears to be.. but its not really (at least not mine) i added capacitor-resistor combinations just like with the Vcc line but added resistors on the gnd line ,too... and i tested again.. the now "filtered"gnd-line against the normal gnd.. and there was quite some noise. so i created a small filter-network to stableize my supply for the receiver only... i connected the shield in the middle between input and output. - i think this might be interesting for the current receiver.. thought it's not that much of a problem depending on the actual circuit. but in some cases it is affecting the signal. well nuber 4 is more or less a ... amplification limiting thing which might (i really am not shure since i tested it with only 6mhz) affect Q102 in the current receiver of ronja. this happens if you use to small capacitors to drive a bipolar-transistor. like you all (ok not all but the ones who knows know it) know is: if you increase the voltage on the base of a bipolar transistor (npn one) the current will increase,too. not only on the collector but on the base,too. this tiny bit of more current can discarge the capacitor again. this happend to me when i used an 1nF capacitor to connect them to my signal. i couldn notice a frequency dependency since my laboratory is not really good enough to check this out. well there where things i thought it might be the source of noise but wasnt in the end.. 1: i didn't reach the thermal noise yet (not even close like it seems) but i already have a somewhat nice amplification. 2: electromagnetic stuff inside the shielding. 3: noise on the gnd+Vcc lines inside the receiver caused by the amplifier itself. my hole receiver is in one small wire-cage without any more shielding or seperations in it. the only noise i can measure is the tiny bit of noise which sneeked through my power-supply-filters. well hope you guys remember some the stuff when you face a receiver-noise =) if you have any further questions,suggestions, schematic-requests or whatever feel free to ask me. greetings thomas e ps: i apologize for another one of my endless posts on this list. i just hope this time you are the ones who might profit from it. instead of answering my usual and stupid questions. psps: these are just my experiences and research results so far. i checked them to the best of my knowledge and possibilities .. unfortunately both are limited... From jdb at lartmaker.nl Mon Nov 6 00:10:23 2006 From: jdb at lartmaker.nl (J.D. Bakker) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 01:10:23 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] where's the noise comming from=) In-Reply-To: <1162770702.8010.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1162770702.8010.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: [Not to invalidate your points, but I thought I should reinforce this point] >3: now this is intresting =) because it most likely affect the current >ronja receiver,too and depending on your power supply it really is a >mean one... >well it's the gnd line of the power supply. usualy one would assume a >gnd line as quite stable. because if you use a a scope or whatever it >appears to be.. but its not really (at least not mine) Rule #1 of high speed/EMI-sensitive design: Ground is an illusion. There is no such thing as a zero-impedance equipotential ground system. JDB. [working on a reply to Karel's e-mail from last Saturday... it has been a busy weekend] -- LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From clock at twibright.com Mon Nov 6 09:00:56 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 10:00:56 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Buying Ronja In-Reply-To: <117110847.20061104225339@sestr.spb.ru> References: <1492829985.20061104215526@sestr.spb.ru> <117110847.20061104225339@sestr.spb.ru> Message-ID: <20061106090056.GB16111@kestrel.twibright.com> On Sat, Nov 04, 2006 at 10:53:39PM +0300, Yurij E. Zagranichnij wrote: > >>Hello! > >> > >> I'm interested in byuing Ronja. Can anyone help? > > JDB> First result from http://www.google.com/search?q=buying+ronja : > > JDB> http://ronja.twibright.com/buyronja.php > > Thank you. I have already read this page. The only thing i have > found is that somebody is selling PSBs in Czech Republic. > > But I'm interested in getting complete working Ronja for testing. Then you still have to build it yourself. I don't know about anyone who would ship complete Ronjas internationally. And the complete Ronja is heavy. If you decide to build it, build it according to instructions. I have heard about people who tested Ronja, but didn't build it according to the instructions, it didn't work and they concluded that "Ronja is unusuable". If you don't adhere to the instructions, and still believe that what you build is Ronja, although in the strictest sense it actually isn't, your testing of Ronja can produce grossly inaccurate results :) CL< > > Probably, someone on this list can sell one? > > Thank you for your attention! > > JDB> HTH, HAND. > > JDB> JDB. > JDB> [you may also want to read > JDB> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html] > > -- > Yurij > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Mon Nov 6 11:57:30 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 12:57:30 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] where's the noise comming from=) In-Reply-To: References: <1162770702.8010.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20061106115730.GC29372@kestrel.twibright.com> On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 01:10:23AM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > [Not to invalidate your points, but I thought I should reinforce this point] > > >3: now this is intresting =) because it most likely affect the current > >ronja receiver,too and depending on your power supply it really is a > >mean one... > >well it's the gnd line of the power supply. usualy one would assume a > >gnd line as quite stable. because if you use a a scope or whatever it > >appears to be.. but its not really (at least not mine) > > Rule #1 of high speed/EMI-sensitive design: > > Ground is an illusion. There is no such thing as a zero-impedance > equipotential ground system. It is - a tight metal enclosure. Why is Ronja in tight metal enclosure, hint hint? If you measure the impedance between any two point inside the enclosure, you get 0. Of course you must make sure you subtract the impedance of your measuring rig (connections). > > JDB. > [working on a reply to Karel's e-mail from last Saturday... it has > been a busy weekend] > -- > LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. > http://www.lartmaker.nl/ > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From jdb at lartmaker.nl Mon Nov 6 12:47:33 2006 From: jdb at lartmaker.nl (J.D. Bakker) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 13:47:33 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] where's the noise comming from=) In-Reply-To: <20061106115730.GC29372@kestrel.twibright.com> References: <1162770702.8010.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061106115730.GC29372@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: >On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 01:10:23AM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > > Rule #1 of high speed/EMI-sensitive design: >> > > Ground is an illusion. There is no such thing as a zero-impedance > > equipotential ground system. > >It is - a tight metal enclosure. NO. A tight metal enclosure has a small but non-zero impedance. > Why is Ronja in tight metal enclosure, hint >hint? Two words: Faraday cage. > If you measure the impedance between any two point inside the enclosure, >you get 0. Of course you must make sure you subtract the impedance of your >measuring rig (connections). Are you talking about DC impedance (== resistance) ? If you're measuring 0 DC resistance that simply means that your meter does not have enough resolution. There is no material on this planet which has infinite conductance and thus zero resistance at room temperature. Were you planning for superconducting materials for Ronja 2.0 ? Even if such a material would exist, impedance at non-zero frequencies would still be non-zero due to Maxwell's equations. In the light of non-zero currents this WILL cause a non-zero voltage difference between any two points. I will repeat this because I think it is vital: There is no such thing as a zero-impedance equipotential ground system. You may design systems such that ground impedance effects are minimized and hopefully not interfere with the system's effects, but they will NEVER be zero. By the way, Karel, why aren't you using feedthrough capacitors for RX/TX power and slow-moving signals ? They are easy to find, cheap and VERY good at filtering out noise (especially when combined with ferrite beads). JDB. -- LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From clock at twibright.com Mon Nov 6 13:19:33 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 14:19:33 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] HPWT-BD00-F400 In-Reply-To: <000b01c70176$f6c087d0$3c0a0a0a@misato2> References: <000b01c70176$f6c087d0$3c0a0a0a@misato2> Message-ID: <20061106131933.GA25208@kestrel.twibright.com> On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 01:41:25AM -0600, Colin Stanners wrote: > >Yes, but the RonjaWiki is crap - it is full of Cialis and Viagra. And I don't > > Should not be anymore. And I think installing a capcha or something will help > prevent it from happening again. Now you have more time for 100mbit Ronja ;-) Reading about the methods of breaking captcha on Wikipedia is an interesting reading. What I am really going to do is rewrite the existing little useful information into some *.phps, put it on Ronja and directly link it, which will be better, remove the Wiki link and delete the wiki. CL< > > -C From clock at twibright.com Mon Nov 6 13:46:10 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 14:46:10 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] where's the noise comming from=) In-Reply-To: References: <1162770702.8010.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061106115730.GC29372@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: <20061106134610.GA790@kestrel.twibright.com> On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 01:47:33PM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > >On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 01:10:23AM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > > > Rule #1 of high speed/EMI-sensitive design: > >> > > > Ground is an illusion. There is no such thing as a zero-impedance > > > equipotential ground system. > > > >It is - a tight metal enclosure. > > NO. A tight metal enclosure has a small but non-zero impedance. What character does the impedance have? And where does the impedance come from? > > > Why is Ronja in tight metal enclosure, hint > >hint? > > Two words: Faraday cage. > > > If you measure the impedance between any two point inside the enclosure, > >you get 0. Of course you must make sure you subtract the impedance of your > >measuring rig (connections). > > Are you talking about DC impedance (== resistance) ? If you're No I am talking about AC impedance. > measuring 0 DC resistance that simply means that your meter does not > have enough resolution. There is no material on this planet which has > infinite conductance and thus zero resistance at room temperature. Copper roof lining is quite good in this regard :) > Were you planning for superconducting materials for Ronja 2.0 ? Not even superconductors have zero resistance. Even on low currents by the law of random numbers (quantum fluctuations), the immediate value very rarely should go over the limiting magnetic flux and the superconductance drops out and a voltage impulse occurs. Then the resistance is not zero but only close to zero. > > Even if such a material would exist, impedance at non-zero > frequencies would still be non-zero due to Maxwell's equations. In > the light of non-zero currents this WILL cause a non-zero voltage > difference between any two points. Argument about speed of light limiting the speed of electromagnetic waves doesn't apply. Counterexample: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave Evanescent waves move synchronously as whole, without phase delay introduced by speed of light. Let's say we have a box and pick 2 points on opposing sides inside the box. Then we measure inductance of our test rig (=piece of wire with a little meter in the middle) and get some value say 5 nH. Then we put the rig into the box and measure something like 3nH. The result is the box has inductance -2nH which is even better than zero! The problem was that our test rig was influenced by the box - the magnetic lines couldn't spread into infinity as they were shielded. We measure the rig in this condition and get 3nH. Then we put it into the box and measure 3nH again. The box is now correctly measured to have 0nH inductance, which is what it actually has. We can use another measurement rig - coaxial cable. If the probes of our L-meter are connected to an inductor, the L meter will see it. So we put a coaxial across the box. On each side we solder ground to ground (to the box) and live to the measured object (the box). Then we realize the coaxial behaves as shorted together. The box has 0 impedance (an impedance of a short). The problem of "finite light speed" is actually not a problem of the box, but of the simple single-wire measuring rig. Can be overcome by using a shielded cable, whose properties don't depend on length (the impedance is constant, only delay changes) and, more important, are independent of what is happening outside the sheath of the cable. CL< > > I will repeat this because I think it is vital: There is no such > thing as a zero-impedance equipotential ground system. > > You may design systems such that ground impedance effects are > minimized and hopefully not interfere with the system's effects, but > they will NEVER be zero. > > By the way, Karel, why aren't you using feedthrough capacitors for > RX/TX power and slow-moving signals ? They are easy to find, cheap > and VERY good at filtering out noise (especially when combined with > ferrite beads). I used to use them before, but it was pain in the ass to drill the holes. The tin tended to be wound up on the drilling bit. And they were hard to find and/or expensive (I don't remember exactly) at that time. > > JDB. > -- > LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. > http://www.lartmaker.nl/ > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From rjw at alembic.com Mon Nov 6 14:01:15 2006 From: rjw at alembic.com (Ron Wickersham) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 06:01:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Ronja] Lots o' transistors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: read the digest, so comment may be late to the party? > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 20:28:37 +0100 > From: Karel Kulhavy > Subject: Re: [Ronja] Lots o' transistors (was gEDA-user: Pointer to 3d > CAD?) > To: "J.D. Bakker" > Cc: Twibright Ronja > > On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 11:01:32PM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > > [You wrote, on gEDA-user:] ---snip--- > Why is the end stage implemented in PNP? Do you fear propping it against +12V > instead of ground would result in residual garbage from the 12V to get out on > the line? Are PNP faster than NPN? Are they slower? What PNPs are you using? PNP are always slower than NPN of similar structure run at the same operating point since electrons are more mobile than holes, but having said that, PNP's can be plenty fast enough for this application. as first stage, PNP is less noisy, so might consider going PNP everywhere. > I just hope my enthusiasm in building a better 10Mbps RX before making an > SMD box won't end up in hitting some hidden problem I didn't think about > and realizing that my "ingenious" construction is a piece of crap. > > And btw what is the R64 for? R64 and C56 provide post-emphasis for the pre-amp with a corner frequency of 1.59 MHz. wonder about the current noise consequences of the 12 mA standing current on each of the input devices, (of course depending on the type selected). the 24 mA total current for the first stage would drive voltage noise low (again depending on the type selected). CL's comment on symmetrical limiting is important, and another approach is to to use series resistors to prevent the base current from cutting off the other side in saturation. have one other concern, R89 indeed drives the coax with approx 50 ohms generator impedance, but the corner frequency of C72 will be at 3.12 MHz which may cause some baseline shift which you don't want to introduce after the limiting. (of course if your splicing in the idle signal is good enough, then this may not be a problem, but depending on that and the code selected for the link, then you might see some data-dependent baseline shift, but it's easy to move the corner frequency 1 or 2 orders of magnitude lower by increasing the coupling capacitor). > Kudos for the cool circuit :) yes, cool! -ron From antitron at web.de Mon Nov 6 14:44:41 2006 From: antitron at web.de (Thomas Egenhofer) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 15:44:41 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] where's the noise comming from=) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1162824281.2379.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-11-06 at 12:00 +0000, ronja-request at lists.pointless.net wrote: > Rule #1 of high speed/EMI-sensitive design: > > Ground is an illusion. There is no such thing as a zero-impedance > equipotential ground system. shure there is no absolute zero..but just like i said, if your "zero" starts to swing (in my case with ~200khz over several 100mV) and depending on your circuit.....well at least I think i noticed some bad influences on my signal. i didn't study high speed emi stuff nor did i learned anything about it at all.. just my experience and the for me likely reasons... i know about basic electronic,logic, quite some bit about data-transmission and encoding stuff but almost nothing about stuff which works above 10 or 20 mhz (except tft-monitors whiche are pure logic again) .. i like to do things and see if they work =). From antitron at web.de Mon Nov 6 16:14:22 2006 From: antitron at web.de (Thomas Egenhofer) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:14:22 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] where's the noise comming from=) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1162829662.5080.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> ah... actually i posted because i thought that it might help with the design of future receivers.. i really didn't want to start a theoretical discussion about impendances, supraconducters , and other effects or stuff which wont be used or concidered in a real device anyway.(why did nobody mentioned thermal noise.. isn't it far more noisy than any cooper shielding?) well it would be great if you would still contribute, but on a little bit more practical level so everyone can profit from it. so who cares about supraconducters as long as a cooper box does a great job and gets rid of a lot of noise? i think the very elemental thing when building a receiver is that you get a nice signal/noise ratio. no need to build a theoretical-perfect one, but a good-working one would be great and quite useful for longer-distance links. From jdb at lartmaker.nl Mon Nov 6 17:11:10 2006 From: jdb at lartmaker.nl (J.D. Bakker) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 18:11:10 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Lots o' transistors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >read the digest, so comment may be late to the party? Not at all; thanks for joining ! >as first stage, PNP is less noisy, so might consider going PNP everywhere. [snip] >wonder about the current noise consequences of the 12 mA standing current >on each of the input devices, (of course depending on the type selected). >the 24 mA total current for the first stage would drive voltage noise low >(again depending on the type selected). Generally speaking, you are completely correct. However, the schematic shows the post-amp of the receiver head, which is being fed by a 10k transimpedance amplifier (schematic to follow when I've tested it to make sure it's an amp not an oscillator). This, combined with a daylight shot noise level of up to 200uV/sqrt(Hz) (measured after the amp) means that I'm not so worried about amplifier noise. The reason that I'm running the amp this hot (~10mA) is to get decent swing in the 100R load. A 100R load level was chosen to keep RC filtering effects down, and because it's pretty hard to design a differential stripline for (much) higher impedances. >CL's comment on symmetrical limiting is important, and another approach >is to to use series resistors to prevent the base current from cutting >off the other side in saturation. Series resistors where, exactly ? In the base connection ? Isn't the Zout of the preceding stage sufficient for this ? >have one other concern, R89 indeed drives the coax with approx 50 ohms >generator impedance, but the corner frequency of C72 will be at 3.12 MHz >which may cause some baseline shift which you don't want to introduce >after the limiting. (of course if your splicing in the idle signal is >good enough, then this may not be a problem, but depending on that and >the code selected for the link, then you might see some data-dependent >baseline shift, but it's easy to move the corner frequency 1 or 2 orders >of magnitude lower by increasing the coupling capacitor). The link runs at ~133Mbit raw with a 12b:16b code which has zero DC. When no payload is sent, a sync/training sequence is transmitted (just like on 100B-TX, if memory serves me well). I'd rather not go for a larger capacitor for reasons of self-resonance (and even a 1000p 0805 might be too close for comfort in that area). Besides, 1000p is *easily* available in C0G/NPO which is a good thing for a device which is confronted with the full industrial temperature range. > > Kudos for the cool circuit :) > >yes, cool! Thanks much for the comments; it's always good to get lots o' holes shot in ones design before it's unleashed upon the General Public. JDB. -- LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From clock at twibright.com Mon Nov 6 19:49:46 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 20:49:46 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Lots o' transistors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061106194946.GA15742@kestrel.twibright.com> On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 06:01:15AM -0800, Ron Wickersham wrote: > read the digest, so comment may be late to the party? > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 20:28:37 +0100 > > From: Karel Kulhavy > > Subject: Re: [Ronja] Lots o' transistors (was gEDA-user: Pointer to 3d > > CAD?) > > To: "J.D. Bakker" > > Cc: Twibright Ronja > > > > On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 11:01:32PM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > > > [You wrote, on gEDA-user:] > > ---snip--- > > > Why is the end stage implemented in PNP? Do you fear propping it against +12V > > instead of ground would result in residual garbage from the 12V to get out on > > the line? Are PNP faster than NPN? Are they slower? What PNPs are you using? > > PNP are always slower than NPN of similar structure run at the same > operating point since electrons are more mobile than holes, but having > said that, PNP's can be plenty fast enough for this application. > > as first stage, PNP is less noisy, so might consider going PNP everywhere. Why is it less noisy? > > > I just hope my enthusiasm in building a better 10Mbps RX before making an > > SMD box won't end up in hitting some hidden problem I didn't think about > > and realizing that my "ingenious" construction is a piece of crap. > > > > And btw what is the R64 for? > > R64 and C56 provide post-emphasis for the pre-amp with a corner frequency > of 1.59 MHz. > > wonder about the current noise consequences of the 12 mA standing current > on each of the input devices, (of course depending on the type selected). > the 24 mA total current for the first stage would drive voltage noise low > (again depending on the type selected). > > CL's comment on symmetrical limiting is important, and another approach > is to to use series resistors to prevent the base current from cutting > off the other side in saturation. Series resistor where? CL< > > have one other concern, R89 indeed drives the coax with approx 50 ohms > generator impedance, but the corner frequency of C72 will be at 3.12 MHz > which may cause some baseline shift which you don't want to introduce > after the limiting. (of course if your splicing in the idle signal is > good enough, then this may not be a problem, but depending on that and > the code selected for the link, then you might see some data-dependent > baseline shift, but it's easy to move the corner frequency 1 or 2 orders > of magnitude lower by increasing the coupling capacitor). > > > Kudos for the cool circuit :) > > yes, cool! > > -ron > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Mon Nov 6 20:48:45 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 21:48:45 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Lots o' transistors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061106204845.GB12631@kestrel.twibright.com> On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 06:11:10PM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > >read the digest, so comment may be late to the party? > > Not at all; thanks for joining ! > > >as first stage, PNP is less noisy, so might consider going PNP everywhere. > > [snip] > > >wonder about the current noise consequences of the 12 mA standing current > >on each of the input devices, (of course depending on the type selected). > >the 24 mA total current for the first stage would drive voltage noise low > >(again depending on the type selected). > > Generally speaking, you are completely correct. However, the > schematic shows the post-amp of the receiver head, which is being fed > by a 10k transimpedance amplifier (schematic to follow when I've > tested it to make sure it's an amp not an oscillator). This, combined > with a daylight shot noise level of up to 200uV/sqrt(Hz) (measured > after the amp) means that I'm not so worried about amplifier noise. Low signal is correlated with low daylight. If it's a dense fog, the signal is reduced and the daylight significantly too. The highest daylight is on direct sun. Moreover, fogs often occur in the night, after the sun sets. People also often use Ronja at the beginning of the night (free time after returning from work). You should be concerned about noise :) > > The reason that I'm running the amp this hot (~10mA) is to get decent > swing in the 100R load. A 100R load level was chosen to keep RC > filtering effects down, and because it's pretty hard to design a > differential stripline for (much) higher impedances. > > >CL's comment on symmetrical limiting is important, and another approach > >is to to use series resistors to prevent the base current from cutting > >off the other side in saturation. > > Series resistors where, exactly ? In the base connection ? Isn't the > Zout of the preceding stage sufficient for this ? > > >have one other concern, R89 indeed drives the coax with approx 50 ohms > >generator impedance, but the corner frequency of C72 will be at 3.12 MHz > >which may cause some baseline shift which you don't want to introduce > >after the limiting. (of course if your splicing in the idle signal is > >good enough, then this may not be a problem, but depending on that and > >the code selected for the link, then you might see some data-dependent > >baseline shift, but it's easy to move the corner frequency 1 or 2 orders > >of magnitude lower by increasing the coupling capacitor). > > The link runs at ~133Mbit raw with a 12b:16b code which has zero DC. > When no payload is sent, a sync/training sequence is transmitted > (just like on 100B-TX, if memory serves me well). You designed this yourself? You are not using the native stream of 100Mbps Ethernet? > > I'd rather not go for a larger capacitor for reasons of > self-resonance (and even a 1000p 0805 might be too close for comfort > in that area). Besides, 1000p is *easily* available in C0G/NPO which > is a good thing for a device which is confronted with the full > industrial temperature range. > > > > Kudos for the cool circuit :) > > > >yes, cool! > > Thanks much for the comments; it's always good to get lots o' holes > shot in ones design before it's unleashed upon the General Public. After you mentioned you are not going to use gschem and PCB I think I should rather focus on my work instead of trying to point out improvements for you. Your works smells rather like a fork than a contribution. Ronja users may not see any benefit I would be able to support from it for years. Until I would get to over-clicking it into gschem or PCB. I don't have illusion of anyone doing that for me. Plenty of people had an opportunity to do it with KJS's boards and noone did. CL< > > JDB. > -- > LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. > http://www.lartmaker.nl/ > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From jdb at lartmaker.nl Mon Nov 6 23:14:58 2006 From: jdb at lartmaker.nl (J.D. Bakker) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 00:14:58 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Lots o' transistors In-Reply-To: <20061106204845.GB12631@kestrel.twibright.com> References: <20061106204845.GB12631@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: >On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 06:11:10PM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > > The link runs at ~133Mbit raw with a 12b:16b code which has zero DC. >> When no payload is sent, a sync/training sequence is transmitted >> (just like on 100B-TX, if memory serves me well). > >You designed this yourself? Yes. > You are not using the native stream of 100Mbps >Ethernet? No. We discussed this before on this list; the un-robustness of Ethernet is a limiting factor in a FSO system. > > Thanks much for the comments; it's always good to get lots o' holes >> shot in ones design before it's unleashed upon the General Public. > >After you mentioned you are not going to use gschem and PCB I think I should >rather focus on my work instead of trying to point out improvements for you. As you wish, your time is yours to spend as you see fit. Do you want me to still point out improvements for you ? JDB. -- LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From clock at twibright.com Mon Nov 6 22:01:24 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 23:01:24 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] 110mm lenses In-Reply-To: References: <20061104194407.GA10206@kestrel.twibright.com> <20061106091125.GD16111@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: <20061106220124.GA1480@kestrel.twibright.com> On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 05:16:35PM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: [...] > To be honest, in the Leiden Ronja workshop we found the mechanical > parts on your website least useful. All your > calculations/measurements are focused (no pun intended) on the > 90/130mm lenses available to you; all we can get here are 110mm I could make some kind of parametric dynamic website where you would enter the lens diameter and focus and it would generate a Ronja guide for you. Unfortunately, there are no suitable tools for commandline generation of DXF files, the existing Qcad is purely point-click oriented. It can't even automatically save DXF into a PostScript from commandline! So I am staying with this. > lenses with a very different focal distance. You mention LED What I suggest here is please measure the focal distance of the lens, fire up Qcad (free software) and change the drawings (dxf), make another directory for 110mm optical head and patch the source of the 130mm head to create a 110mm one. So in the future people who have 110mm head will not have to change the drawing themselves or recalculate the length of the pipe, heel and the hood, and will be able to use it directly. If you need the .php sources, they are under Development in the ViewCV link. Or you can use the 130mm head and just shorten the pipe, this saves the hood recalculation at the expense of more material and wind resistance and bigger device. Lucas Vogelsang from here also has probably 10 130mm loupes for sale, you could use 130mm loupes too (you will get more distance). How many links are you making? You say the lens has short focus. In that case use the variant of the LED that has wider angle (I don't remember by heart the type name, but the default one has a narrower one). You can check which one gives a brighter spot on a wall. If in doubts, build Ronja Benchpress or borrow it from someone (did anyone else except me build it?) and measure the lens gain, then you get a precise answer and will be able to predict the range precisely. All you need is to stick the result into gnuplot/GNU R files that calculate the range graphs. Cl< > efficiency, but nowhere do you say that LED efficiency is directly > tied to the lenses you have (for example, a lens where the focal > length and the diameter are almost the same is much more efficient > with other leds than the HPWT-BD00). Finally, we cannot get tin plate > anywhere, which means we have to design our own enclosures. > > I do make enough info available for others to reproduce the design, > and make modified versions should they so desire. People have done it > with the LART, which is conceptually much harder than this. > > JDB. > -- > LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. > http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From clock at twibright.com Tue Nov 7 09:50:18 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:50:18 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Lots o' transistors In-Reply-To: References: <20061106204845.GB12631@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: <20061107095018.GA3228@kestrel.twibright.com> On Tue, Nov 07, 2006 at 12:14:58AM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > >On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 06:11:10PM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > > > The link runs at ~133Mbit raw with a 12b:16b code which has zero DC. > >> When no payload is sent, a sync/training sequence is transmitted > >> (just like on 100B-TX, if memory serves me well). > > > >You designed this yourself? > > Yes. > > > You are not using the native stream of 100Mbps > >Ethernet? > > No. We discussed this before on this list; the un-robustness of > Ethernet is a limiting factor in a FSO system. > > > > Thanks much for the comments; it's always good to get lots o' holes > >> shot in ones design before it's unleashed upon the General Public. > > > >After you mentioned you are not going to use gschem and PCB I think I should > >rather focus on my work instead of trying to point out improvements for you. > > As you wish, your time is yours to spend as you see fit. > > Do you want me to still point out improvements for you ? If it's not consuming much of your time... Don't be surprised I am skeptical - someone even drew a schematic of microcontroller-powered monitoring device for Ronja in gschem, but then he abandoned it and did neither a PCB nor instructions how to build and use it. I prefer to figure out bugs first and do features only after, therefore his project is still abandoned. I finally realized that your current sources have a significant advantage - my construction prevents the output current to be influenced by the changes on output voltage as well as your one. However the parasitic capacitance C-B in my construction is in parallel to the output and therefore conducts the garbage from the output on the common bases. From the common bases they are conducted by another C-B parasitic capacitance to another output. So there is a risk of feedback and oscillations through the system of current sources. Your solution is definitely better. CL< > > JDB. > -- > LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. > http://www.lartmaker.nl/ > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From jdb at lartmaker.nl Tue Nov 7 13:14:38 2006 From: jdb at lartmaker.nl (J.D. Bakker) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 14:14:38 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Lots o' transistors In-Reply-To: <20061107095018.GA3228@kestrel.twibright.com> References: <20061106204845.GB12631@kestrel.twibright.com> <20061107095018.GA3228@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: > > >After you mentioned you are not going to use gschem and PCB I >think I should >> >rather focus on my work instead of trying to point out >>improvements for you. >> >> As you wish, your time is yours to spend as you see fit. >> >> Do you want me to still point out improvements for you ? > >If it's not consuming much of your time... It rather is. According to my timelog, I've spent over three hours researching, drafting and replying to the messages we exchanged since last Saturday. I, too, could have spent that time working on finishing my design. >Don't be surprised I am skeptical - someone even drew a schematic of >microcontroller-powered monitoring device for Ronja in gschem, but then he >abandoned it and did neither a PCB nor instructions how to build and use it. I see that; and as I've said before (http://www.pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/2006-April/008760.html) there are no guarantees until the designs have been released. Then again, what guarantee do any of us have that *your* designs will ever be published ? When will we see Aisha, for example ? Realistically the only sensible approach I can see is in symmetry. I spend time reviewing your design, you spend time reviewing mine. There are no hard guarantees that my design will ever work/be released; the same is true for yours. JDB. -- LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From clock at twibright.com Tue Nov 7 17:21:15 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 18:21:15 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Lots o' transistors In-Reply-To: References: <20061106204845.GB12631@kestrel.twibright.com> <20061107095018.GA3228@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: <20061107172115.GA27844@kestrel.twibright.com> On Tue, Nov 07, 2006 at 02:14:38PM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > > > >After you mentioned you are not going to use gschem and PCB I > >think I should > >> >rather focus on my work instead of trying to point out > >>improvements for you. > >> > >> As you wish, your time is yours to spend as you see fit. > >> > >> Do you want me to still point out improvements for you ? > > > >If it's not consuming much of your time... > > It rather is. According to my timelog, I've spent over three hours > researching, drafting and replying to the messages we exchanged since > last Saturday. I, too, could have spent that time working on > finishing my design. Why do you actually don't use gschem and PCB? Is it because you can't or because you don't want? > > >Don't be surprised I am skeptical - someone even drew a schematic of > >microcontroller-powered monitoring device for Ronja in gschem, but then he > >abandoned it and did neither a PCB nor instructions how to build and use it. > > I see that; and as I've said before > (http://www.pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/2006-April/008760.html) > there are no guarantees until the designs have been released. Then > again, what guarantee do any of us have that *your* designs will ever > be published ? When will we see Aisha, for example ? No guarantee for Aisha. But there is a guarantee that Twister, Twister2 and PCB Metropolis Transmitter will be released latest at this moment :) CL< > > Realistically the only sensible approach I can see is in symmetry. I > spend time reviewing your design, you spend time reviewing mine. > There are no hard guarantees that my design will ever work/be > released; the same is true for yours. > > JDB. > -- > LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. > http://www.lartmaker.nl/ > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From jdb at lartmaker.nl Tue Nov 7 18:16:19 2006 From: jdb at lartmaker.nl (J.D. Bakker) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 19:16:19 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Lots o' transistors In-Reply-To: <20061107172115.GA27844@kestrel.twibright.com> References: <20061106204845.GB12631@kestrel.twibright.com> <20061107095018.GA3228@kestrel.twibright.com> <20061107172115.GA27844@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: >On Tue, Nov 07, 2006 at 02:14:38PM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: >> > > >After you mentioned you are not going to use gschem and PCB I >> >think I should >> >> >rather focus on my work instead of trying to point out >> >>improvements for you. >> >> >> >> As you wish, your time is yours to spend as you see fit. >> >> >> >> Do you want me to still point out improvements for you ? >> > >> >If it's not consuming much of your time... >> >> It rather is. According to my timelog, I've spent over three hours >> researching, drafting and replying to the messages we exchanged since >> last Saturday. I, too, could have spent that time working on >> finishing my design. > >Why do you actually don't use gschem and PCB? Is it because you can't or >because you don't want? (We have discussed this a few times. My most complete arguments are here: http://www.pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/2005-September/007452.html) Oh, I want to. It's just that especially PCB isn't there yet. In my design flow I rely heavily on back annotation (which isn't anywhere near ready in gschem/PCB), and with my tools I can handle ground planes much more easily than in PCB. I like the developments in PCB, and maybe in a year it will be able to replace my tools. But not now, and since the university isn't paying me anymore it's close to impossible for me time-wise to add the necessary improvements myself. I'll see if I can try PCB on a few low-complexity projects I have coming up in the near future, but the 100Mbps system is much too complex to use as a testing ground for a new CAD environment. My current tools are ten years old, 16-bit Windows code without even proper RS274X output (I've had to write my own translator). Do you think I wouldn't prefer to use an actively maintained FOSS platform ? JDB. -- LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From discover at fly.srk.fer.hr Fri Nov 10 15:19:55 2006 From: discover at fly.srk.fer.hr (Silvije) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:19:55 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Ronja] Check this out Message-ID: http://yaeda.org/ s. From PacoMT at aol.com Sun Nov 12 17:44:21 2006 From: PacoMT at aol.com (PacoMT at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 12:44:21 EST Subject: [Ronja] a) buy twister2 pcb boards b) alternative concept question Message-ID: Clock, I recall you said some time ago you have twister2 PCB boards for sale that I presume only lack components. If true, I'd like to arrange purchase and delivery of 2. Please write me privately so I can give you my details and to arrange payment. Thank you. I decided to do this because I botched an order for 2 such pcb boards recently. Trying to save some money and thinking that plated through-holes could be dispensed with for the components, I ordered boards without through-hole plating. The opportunity for me to have the boards fabricated quickly and cheaply came along unexpectedly so at the time I had not examined the twister2 circuit at all (which I am still examining if only to try to completely understand how it works). Only now I realize the through hole plating is a must--not for the components, but for the many circuit paths around the board from one component to another. It was an incredibly stupid decision made in ignorance. So now I will stop wasting money trying to save money. While I'm writing to you I might as well get this off my chest since I'm no electronics engineer and I doubt I will have the chance to seriously investigate this anytime soon, if ever. Why can we not manipulate the frequency of the very light beam itself to do the work of the transmitting instead of using on-off keying? I speak of the nanometer light waves--the color of the light beam, if you will, since a large enough shift in lightwave frequency will yield a color shift. Unfortunately I do not know if the components exist to even allow contemplating such a device. My rudimentary research pointed me in the direction of certain laser diodes and tunable lasers that are adjustable: the emitted frequency of light responds to the voltage applied. Of course the size of the response is very small and narrow, but I assume sufficiently rapid if a little unstable and liable to minor drift. I don't seem to have found through reading alone if such minute changes can be detected by any commonly available components even if other components can generate those changes in a light beam's frequency. Then there's the cost factor which I never explored. And maybe I was just misunderstanding everything I read about these components. But if workable, I thought this might prove somewhat more robust than on-off keying in bad weather conditions. The goal would be a light beam that is on all the time but whose frequency shifts sufficiently to be detectable and that can be modulated sufficiently quickly. Deterioration of, and interference with, the amplitude of the light beam itself should be surmountable if you are only looking for shifts in frequency, i.e., color. Carry the logic a few steps forward and it all starts to sound something like traditional radio minus the radio waves. I've read on-off keying is more robust in the context of radio, but is that still true when using a light beam as a medium of transmission? Do you think I am smoking crack? Though this happened some time ago, I thought it could be a fun read in case you missed it: scientists at Livermore achieved a 28-kilometer free space optical link (web links below)--sort of an oversized Ronja with a government budget. They defeated what they saw as the major obstacle to such long distance links for their device: scintillation, and more specifically "wavefront distortion" of the light beam. They borrowed technology used by astronomers called adaptive optics. Truly unbelievably complex and costly technology. LINKS News Release: http://www.llnl.gov/PAO/news/news_releases/2002/NR-02-04-08.html In depth article: http://www.llnl.gov/tid/lof/documents/pdf/240452.pdf Photos of device: http://www.ornl.gov/info/news/pulse/pulse_v111_02.htm (half way down the page) http://www.llnl.gov/PAO/employee/articles/2003/01-10-03-newsline.pdf (page 4) My apologies for length. -Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20061112/698038a7/attachment.html From clock at twibright.com Mon Nov 13 10:21:52 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:21:52 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] a) buy twister2 pcb boards b) alternative concept question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061113102152.GA14512@kestrel.twibright.com> On Sun, Nov 12, 2006 at 12:44:21PM -0500, PacoMT at aol.com wrote: > Clock, > I recall you said some time ago you have twister2 PCB boards for sale > that I presume only lack components. If true, I'd like to arrange purchase and > delivery of 2. Please write me privately so I can give you my details and to > arrange payment. Thank you. I don't have Twister2 boards for sale. I never announced I have any. Must be some kind of mistake. > I decided to do this because I botched an order for 2 such pcb boards > recently. Trying to save some money and thinking that plated through-holes could > be dispensed with for the components, I ordered boards without through-hole > plating. The opportunity for me to have the boards fabricated quickly and > cheaply came along unexpectedly so at the time I had not examined the twister2 > circuit at all (which I am still examining if only to try to completely understand > how it works). Only now I realize the through hole plating is a must--not for > the components, but for the many circuit paths around the board from one > component to another. It was an incredibly stupid decision made in ignorance. So > now I will stop wasting money trying to save money. The through-plating is clearly specified in the README. > > > While I'm writing to you I might as well get this off my chest since I'm > no electronics engineer and I doubt I will have the chance to seriously > investigate this anytime soon, if ever. Why can we not manipulate the > frequency of the very light beam itself to do the work of the > transmitting instead of using on-off keying? I speak of the nanometer > light waves--the color of the light beam, if you will, since a large > enough shift in lightwave frequency will yield a color shift. With a LED you cannot manipulate it. > Unfortunately I do not know if the components exist to even allow > contemplating such a device. My rudimentary research pointed me in the > direction of certain laser diodes and tunable lasers that are adjustable: > the emitted frequency of light responds to the voltage applied. Of course > the size of the response is very small and narrow, but I assume > sufficiently rapid if a little unstable and liable to minor drift. But is there any reason to think that such a complicated setup would bring any benefit compared to a simple LED diode? > I don't seem to have found through reading alone if such minute changes > can be detected by any commonly available components even if other > components can generate those changes in a light beam's frequency. Then > there's the cost factor which I never explored. And maybe I was just > misunderstanding everything I read about these components. But if > workable, I thought this might prove somewhat more robust than on-off > keying in bad weather conditions. The goal If you need a more robust system, you can build two transmitters instead of one. I actually don't know if using a direct light FM instead of keying would bring more range while the rest of the parameters of the system stay the same. > would be a light beam that is on all the time but whose frequency shifts > sufficiently to be detectable and that can be modulated sufficiently quickly. > Deterioration of, and interference with, the amplitude of the light beam itself should > be surmountable if you are only looking for shifts in frequency, i.e., color. > Carry the logic a few steps forward and it all starts to sound something like > traditional radio minus the radio waves. I've read on-off keying is more > robust in the context of radio, but is that still true when using a light beam as > a medium of transmission? Do you think I am smoking crack? Well it's possible to bring up many unusual ideas but you have to understand the variables involved in the design and their mutual tradeoff interactions to actually help the project. > > Though this happened some time ago, I thought it could be a fun read in > case you missed it: scientists at Livermore achieved a 28-kilometer free space > optical link (web links below)--sort of an oversized Ronja with a government > budget. They defeated what they saw as the major obstacle to such long > distance links for their device: scintillation, and more specifically "wavefront > distortion" of the light beam. They borrowed technology used by astronomers called > adaptive optics. Truly unbelievably complex and costly technology. I guess they are not going to publish their technology for free in a form that ordinary man can build and modify easily in a garage. I would expect they would try to make as much money on it as possible instead ;-) CL< > > LINKS > News Release: > http://www.llnl.gov/PAO/news/news_releases/2002/NR-02-04-08.html > In depth article: > http://www.llnl.gov/tid/lof/documents/pdf/240452.pdf > Photos of device: > http://www.ornl.gov/info/news/pulse/pulse_v111_02.htm (half way down the > page) > http://www.llnl.gov/PAO/employee/articles/2003/01-10-03-newsline.pdf (page > 4) > > My apologies for length. > > -Paul > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Tue Nov 14 07:00:02 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 08:00:02 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] your mail In-Reply-To: <000f01c70715$4e936a60$9664000a@maxhome> References: <000f01c70715$4e936a60$9664000a@maxhome> Message-ID: <20061114070002.GA25298@kestrel.twibright.com> On Mon, Nov 13, 2006 at 12:17:26PM +0100, Jirka DKFreeNet wrote: > Zdravim mel jsem tu jednu neozivenou elektroniku 2xTW + hnizda Metropolis. > Oziveno chodi od 40 mV ale snazil jsem se doladit Preemphasi protoze mi RSSI > pri 100% zatezi spadne o 0.4 - 0.5 V coz se mi nelibi zkusil jsem menit > hodnoru R8 tusim podle planku ale nemelo to zadny pozorovatelny vliv, mate > nekdo nejaky postreh k veci :)? MAX DKNLfree It's normal that RSSI goes down when data are passing. Don't change the preemphasis according to RSSI, change it according to the guide. Otherwise you will decrease the range of your Ronja. CL< From clock at twibright.com Tue Nov 14 22:15:14 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 23:15:14 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja ringtone made out of the Tetrax console Message-ID: <20061114221514.GA7997@kestrel.twibright.com> Do you want something cooler that Teenage Buzz? Do you want to express your unique personality and show to everyone that you are building Ronja? Then download the Ronja ringtone! Completely for free - under GFDL! I made a final prototype of the Tetrax console and discovered that it can make spooky sounds. I made the Ronja ringtone out of it. Ringtone 37kB IMA ADPCM 22.05kHz http://ronja.twibright.com/audio/ronja_rt.wav Ringtone 54kB MP3 22.05kHz http://ronja.twibright.com/audio/ronja_rt.mp3 All the sound clips: http://ronja.twibright.com/audio/tetrax10.ogg http://ronja.twibright.com/audio/tetrax7.ogg http://ronja.twibright.com/audio/tetrax6.ogg http://ronja.twibright.com/audio/tetrax1.ogg http://ronja.twibright.com/audio/tetrax3.ogg http://ronja.twibright.com/audio/tetrax4.ogg http://ronja.twibright.com/audio/tetrax2.ogg http://ronja.twibright.com/audio/tetrax5.ogg http://ronja.twibright.com/audio/tetrax8.ogg http://ronja.twibright.com/audio/tetrax9.ogg Pictures of Tetrax: http://images.twibright.com/tns/1f38.html Pictures of Plazmatron holder that interfaces to the Tetrax console: http://images.twibright.com/tns/1f25.html The tone is the first part of tetrax10.ogg. I equalized the spectrum manually to make the harmonics less hidden behind the fundamentals. Then I manually equalized the volume of the individual strokes somewhat. The goal was to make it as audible in noisy surrounding as possible. CL< From clock at twibright.com Tue Nov 14 22:55:01 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 23:55:01 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Tetrax 3D model Message-ID: <20061114225501.GB7997@kestrel.twibright.com> http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/ at the bottom, search for "tetrax" CL< From bartosz_kolodziejczak at o2.pl Thu Nov 16 23:23:36 2006 From: bartosz_kolodziejczak at o2.pl (Bartosz Kolodziejczak) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 00:23:36 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Tetrax 3D model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <455CF2F8.90602@o2.pl> Hi Karel, Looks cool! But how do you know those rubber elements won't change its demensions or loose its flexibility as the years went by and thus don't cause alignment changes? I also wanted to use such an elements, but finally I came to the conclusion its not reliable. I'm currently using nuts to make sure my screws won't move. Crush From jirka.rozumek at atlas.cz Sat Nov 18 11:33:19 2006 From: jirka.rozumek at atlas.cz (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Ji=F8=ED_Rozumek?=) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 12:33:19 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Prodej spoje Message-ID: <00cd01c70b05$65a4f540$0201a8c0@maximus> Prodam spoj Ronja, bezel na vzdalenost 300m, nahradili jsme ho dratovou optikou. RX,TX jsou pajene do vrabciho hnizda, z jedne strany twister, z druhe AUI (pribalim i PCI sitovku), jedno topeni, cca 60m koaxu Mechanika je trochu rezeva, bude potrebovat opravu. velke cocky. Podrobnosti na mailu. Jiri Rozumek ------------- dal?? ??st --------------- HTML p??loha byla odstran?na... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20061118/03fc0716/attachment.html From clock at twibright.com Sat Nov 18 12:23:20 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:23:20 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Tetrax 3D model In-Reply-To: <455CF2F8.90602@o2.pl> References: <455CF2F8.90602@o2.pl> Message-ID: <20061118122320.GA25356@kestrel.twibright.com> On Fri, Nov 17, 2006 at 12:23:36AM +0100, Bartosz Kolodziejczak wrote: > Hi Karel, > > Looks cool! > But how do you know those rubber elements won't change its demensions or They can change dimension. The design doesn't require them to keep the dimension. > loose its flexibility as the years went by and thus don't cause The design doesn't require them to keep the same flexibility. All they need to be still able to stuff the space between the plates with some reasonable force. > alignment changes? The alignment doesn't change until the rubber would substantially disintegrate. These holders were in operation for years. The rubber usually develops little cracks on the surface from the weather, but otherwise stays the same. Maybe after 10 years it will fall apart and need to be replaced. But the LED has lifetime of 12 years so the rubber can be replaced with the LED. > > I also wanted to use such an elements, but finally I came to the > conclusion its not reliable. I'm currently using nuts to make sure my According to the design idea and experience, it seems to be reliable. CL< > screws won't move. > > > Crush > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Sat Nov 18 20:45:07 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 21:45:07 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Prostejov - GFDL copyright Message-ID: <20061118204507.GA21465@kestrel.twibright.com> Hello If here is anyone from Prostejov who made this link: I created this images on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ronja_beam_Prostejov.jpg Could you please write your name and confirm explicitly that the image is under GFDL? I don't want the people on Wikipedia to have problems with the image if they don't believe it's under GFDL. I put the image as an illustration into a Wikipedia article about LED: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode#LED_applications Thanks, CL< From jakub.list-ronja at horky.net Sun Nov 19 14:39:57 2006 From: jakub.list-ronja at horky.net (Jakub Horky) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 15:39:57 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] HPWT-BD00-F400 In-Reply-To: References: <000601c6fc42$d2464720$c701a8c0@bilbo> <20061031114447.GA22202@kestrel.twibright.com> <20061101102001.GA31472@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: <431626f50611190639o23fdb58fqc53d1a01ea02f246@mail.gmail.com> On 11/1/06, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > > > But i'm not sure if RonjaShop is still reliable. I'm affraid it has > > > already died. > > > > Why do you think it has died? If it has died it's time to not put it on > > the pages to prevent people sending money and then getting nothing, or > > at least wasting time trying to contact the nonexisting shop. > > Because i placed an order for two twister PCBs about two weeks ago and > no reply haven't came back by now. And after reading thread > http://www.pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/2005-October/007690.html I > wasn't suprised at all. I know it's quite obsolete nevertheless I'm > affraid the situation descibed in that thread still persists. Hi, the Ronjashop is definitely NOT dead. It is servicing from its beginning. Yes, the link you provided points to personal problems which happened more than a year ago. For all that, there wasn't one single order left unhandled. Anyway, that's not the real status anymore. An year ago, significant personal changes has been made and from that time on, Ronjashop is servicing each order at its best. Don't afraid to order there. You won't be disappointed. Regarding to you complaint you didn't receive any reply - I checked out entire e-mail communication and didn't find any e-mail from your e-mail address. Maybe it was catched by some spam filter somewhere on the path. In any case, you have an ability to call us directly to +420777123432, as stated anywhere on web site. Best regards, Jakub Horky Ronjashop From jakub.list-ronja at horky.net Sun Nov 19 14:45:03 2006 From: jakub.list-ronja at horky.net (Jakub Horky) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 15:45:03 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Twister1 PCBs from ronjashop.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <431626f50611190645n61d42c3fi9516e30c319c0398@mail.gmail.com> On 10/17/06, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > Hi all. > > I ordered two twister PCBs at ronjashop.com with personal delivery at > Prague 9. But then i found this topic > (http://www.pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/2005-October/007690.html) > here on mailing list. After reading it I started to be doubtful. > > Is there anybody who recently has ordered PCBs and has received them too? > > Thanks in sdvance. > > Honza Hi, information at that link is obsolete. Ronjashop is ready to service your orders. Best regards, -- Jakub Horky Ronjashop From jakub.list-ronja at horky.net Sun Nov 19 14:52:05 2006 From: jakub.list-ronja at horky.net (Jakub Horky) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 15:52:05 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Funguje Ronjashop.com? In-Reply-To: <1206.3736-23763-530521179-1142623081@seznam.cz> References: <1206.3736-23763-530521179-1142623081@seznam.cz> Message-ID: <431626f50611190652k605315c5j8f376b248f2d10d5@mail.gmail.com> On 3/17/06, Michal Divi? wrote: > I would to ask you, if someone have information about ronjashop.com, if it is still working or not. I sent order (and pay) week ago and until now nothing happend. Even the order status on web. > > Rad bych se zeptal, jestli ma nekdo informace o tom, zda ronjashop.com funguje nebo ne. Posilal jsem tam objednavku, plosnaky jsou zaplaceny vic jak tyden a nic se nedeje, ani stav objednavky se nezmenil. Hi, yes, Ronjashop is working. Now I'm looking into the database and I see you made two orders and both are finished. Sometimes it takes a week for payment to be delivered to us, because they are sometimes delayed, especially when doing an international payment. Best regards, -- Jakub Horky From jakub.list-ronja at horky.net Sun Nov 19 15:00:06 2006 From: jakub.list-ronja at horky.net (Jakub Horky) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 16:00:06 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] ronjashop.com In-Reply-To: <43EB11DC.1060105@goldmund.com> References: <20060207214306.GA23759@kestrel> <43EB11DC.1060105@goldmund.com> Message-ID: <431626f50611190700y4490f5a6wed85b06e64f93620@mail.gmail.com> On 2/9/06, Quentin berthet wrote: > Hi, > > I've ordered (and payed)some pcb near 1 month ago and no news since. > I'have also send a mail to info na ronjashop.com to ask if they have > received my money but no reply. Hi, if you are unable to contact us by email, then certainly try to make a phone call. Our phone number is on ronjashop.com website. However, e-mail should also be working. But sometimes it is catched by spam filters somewhere on the path. Best regards, -- Jakub Horky Ronjashop From clock at twibright.com Mon Nov 20 15:43:53 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:43:53 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] HPWT-BD00-F400 In-Reply-To: <431626f50611190639o23fdb58fqc53d1a01ea02f246@mail.gmail.com> References: <000601c6fc42$d2464720$c701a8c0@bilbo> <20061031114447.GA22202@kestrel.twibright.com> <20061101102001.GA31472@kestrel.twibright.com> <431626f50611190639o23fdb58fqc53d1a01ea02f246@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061120154353.GA5905@kestrel.twibright.com> On Sun, Nov 19, 2006 at 03:39:57PM +0100, Jakub Horky wrote: > On 11/1/06, Honza Hnizdil wrote: > > > > But i'm not sure if RonjaShop is still reliable. I'm affraid it has > > > > already died. > > > > > > Why do you think it has died? If it has died it's time to not put it on > > > the pages to prevent people sending money and then getting nothing, or > > > at least wasting time trying to contact the nonexisting shop. > > > > Because i placed an order for two twister PCBs about two weeks ago and > > no reply haven't came back by now. And after reading thread > > http://www.pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/2005-October/007690.html I > > wasn't suprised at all. I know it's quite obsolete nevertheless I'm > > affraid the situation descibed in that thread still persists. > > Hi, > > the Ronjashop is definitely NOT dead. It is servicing from its > beginning. Yes, the link you provided points to personal problems > which happened more than a year ago. For all that, there wasn't one > single order left unhandled. > > Anyway, that's not the real status anymore. An year ago, significant > personal changes has been made and from that time on, Ronjashop is > servicing each order at its best. Don't afraid to order there. You > won't be disappointed. > > Regarding to you complaint you didn't receive any reply - I checked > out entire e-mail communication and didn't find any e-mail from your > e-mail address. Maybe it was catched by some spam filter somewhere on > the path. In any case, you have an ability to call us directly to > +420777123432, as stated anywhere on web site. I think it would look much better if some statistic would be included, for example a graph of orders processed for each month passed, so people see the webshop is active. Otherwise they may think you get only little orders and it will take long until they get it. I also noticed you acquired the alphawave.cz domain. This may be the first time in history when a domain previously owned by a manufacturer of a proprietary FSO is acquired by a webshop selling parts for User Controlled Technology FSO :) CL< > > Best regards, > > Jakub Horky > Ronjashop > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Mon Nov 20 15:44:42 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:44:42 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Funguje Ronjashop.com? In-Reply-To: <431626f50611190652k605315c5j8f376b248f2d10d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1206.3736-23763-530521179-1142623081@seznam.cz> <431626f50611190652k605315c5j8f376b248f2d10d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061120154442.GB5905@kestrel.twibright.com> On Sun, Nov 19, 2006 at 03:52:05PM +0100, Jakub Horky wrote: > On 3/17/06, Michal Divi? wrote: > > I would to ask you, if someone have information about ronjashop.com, if it is still working or not. I sent order (and pay) week ago and until now nothing happend. Even the order status on web. > > > > Rad bych se zeptal, jestli ma nekdo informace o tom, zda ronjashop.com funguje nebo ne. Posilal jsem tam objednavku, plosnaky jsou zaplaceny vic jak tyden a nic se nedeje, ani stav objednavky se nezmenil. > > Hi, > > yes, Ronjashop is working. Now I'm looking into the database and I see > you made two orders and both are finished. Sometimes it takes a week Does finished mean that the boards are already sent? CL< > for payment to be delivered to us, because they are sometimes delayed, > especially when doing an international payment. > > Best regards, > > -- > Jakub Horky > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Fri Nov 24 08:32:33 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:32:33 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] [Fwd: Prostejov - GFDL copyright] In-Reply-To: <4407.192.168.0.1.1164325463.squirrel@webmail.melzer.cz> References: <26452.85.70.108.120.1164013323.squirrel@webmail.melzer.cz> <4407.192.168.0.1.1164325463.squirrel@webmail.melzer.cz> Message-ID: <20061124083233.GA19663@kestrel.twibright.com> On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 12:44:23AM +0100, Jan?l Ond?ej wrote: > Ahoj > > Samozrejme ze davame souhlas se zverejnenim, vice na > http://www.pvfree.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2798 > > Vetsina fotek: http://foto.jinde.cz/gallery/ronja Da se rozlisit, co patri ke ktere instalaci? Jestli by to bylo obtizne tridit tak kdybyste aspon pro kazdou instalaci rekli nejlepsi fotku kterou nalinkuju jako obrazek do galerie a ten zbytek muzu dat na jednu hromadu do adresare prostejov. Jinak vidim, ze mate srouby co jdou skrz gumy do vyrizlych zavitu. Ja jsem to tak nenavrhoval, aby to tepelne zmeny v tech zavitech nahodou nepotacely. Cetl jsem jednou nekde, ze na necim hrobe se neustale pootacela tezka betonova koule. Mysleli si, ze neboztik je nejak aktivni nebo ze tam strasi, az pak odbornici prisli na to, ze to zpusobuji tepelne zmeny. V me konstrukci se to otacet nemuze protoze i kdyz clovek zkusi sroubem otocit aniz by drzel matku, samojistna matka se protoci. Pozorujete, ze by se to postupem casu otacelo? Az tam pudete, muzete udelat carky fixou ze sroubu na tu plochu a za nejakou delsi dobu zkontrolovat, jestli se nejaky ze sroubu nepootocil? CL< > > BTW: V Prostejove jsou jiz funkcni 4 trasy (1000m, 1000m, 700m, 500m) a zitra by > mela pribyt dalsi (600m) > > > > > -------- P?vodn? zpr?va -------- > > P?edm?t: [Ronja] Prostejov - GFDL copyright > > Od: Karel Kulhavy > > Datum: 18 Listopad 2006, 21:45 > > Komu: Twibright Ronja > > > > Hello > > > > If here is anyone from Prostejov who made this link: > > I created this images on Wikipedia > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ronja_beam_Prostejov.jpg > > > > Could you please write your name and confirm explicitly that the image is > > under GFDL? I don't want the people on Wikipedia to have problems with the > > image if they don't believe it's under GFDL. > > > > I put the image as an illustration into a Wikipedia article about LED: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode#LED_applications > > > > Thanks, > > > > CL< > > > > -- > > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > > > > > -- > > > > Petr "Zapik" Zapadlo > > From petrkr at freelom.net Sun Nov 26 19:06:40 2006 From: petrkr at freelom.net (Petr Kracik) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:06:40 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] RONJA v lomnici n pop Message-ID: Zdravim taky sem se pustil do stavby... zatim mam ale jen elektorniku, mechaniku me slibil kamarad, avsak jeste se mu do toho nejak nechce foto z "prubezne" stavby jsou na http://freelom.net/ronja/ s p. Petrkr Jabbrr: petrkr na freelom.net -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From anmic at fmg.sk Sun Nov 26 19:18:47 2006 From: anmic at fmg.sk (anMic) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:18:47 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] RONJA v lomnici n pop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4569E897.1080500@fmg.sk> Pekne fotky. V jakych krabickach mate ten twister? Tvari se to jako nejake natrene plastove krabicky od lekarnicky. Kvuli stineni bych doporucil dat tam kovove. Jan Matyas Petr Kracik napsal(a): > Zdravim > taky sem se pustil do stavby... zatim mam ale jen elektorniku, mechaniku > me slibil kamarad, avsak jeste se mu do toho nejak nechce > foto z "prubezne" stavby jsou na http://freelom.net/ronja/ > > s p. Petrkr > > Jabbrr: petrkr at freelom.net > From clock at twibright.com Tue Nov 28 06:38:46 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:38:46 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] RONJA v lomnici n pop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061128063846.GB19271@kestrel.twibright.com> On Sun, Nov 26, 2006 at 08:06:40PM +0100, Petr Kracik wrote: > Zdravim > taky sem se pustil do stavby... zatim mam ale jen elektorniku, mechaniku > me slibil kamarad, avsak jeste se mu do toho nejak nechce > foto z "prubezne" stavby jsou na http://freelom.net/ronja/ Which parts of the instructions did you find easy and which difficult? CL< > > s p. Petrkr > > Jabbrr: petrkr at freelom.net > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From petrkr at freelom.net Tue Nov 28 07:10:50 2006 From: petrkr at freelom.net (Petr Kracik) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:10:50 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] RONJA v lomnici n pop In-Reply-To: <4569E897.1080500@fmg.sk> References: <4569E897.1080500@fmg.sk> Message-ID: Jo tvari se to dobre... jsou to opravdu nejake krabicky od lekarnicek... jako velikost je tak akorat.... uvidime jak to bude slapat... zatim co sem testovala tak na ten 1-2m to jede plno 1.1MB/s. jinak kamos mel tydle posledni takze dalsi verze uz v nich nebude... myslis ze by mohl pomoci jako stineni nalepit zevnitr treba alobal? s p. Petrkr Jabber: petrkr na freelom.net On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:18:47 +0100, anMic wrote: > Pekne fotky. V jakych krabickach mate ten twister? Tvari se to jako > nejake natrene plastove krabicky od lekarnicky. Kvuli stineni bych > doporucil dat tam kovove. > > Jan Matyas > > Petr Kracik napsal(a): >> Zdravim >> taky sem se pustil do stavby... zatim mam ale jen elektorniku, mechaniku >> me slibil kamarad, avsak jeste se mu do toho nejak nechce >> foto z "prubezne" stavby jsou na http://freelom.net/ronja/ >> >> s p. Petrkr >> >> Jabbrr: petrkr na freelom.net >> > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From anmic at fmg.sk Tue Nov 28 15:27:27 2006 From: anmic at fmg.sk (anMic) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:27:27 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] RONJA v lomnici n pop In-Reply-To: References: <4569E897.1080500@fmg.sk> Message-ID: <456C555F.7060508@fmg.sk> Petr Kracik napsal(a): > Jo tvari se to dobre... jsou to opravdu nejake krabicky od lekarnicek... > jako velikost je tak akorat.... uvidime jak to bude slapat... > zatim co sem testovala tak na ten 1-2m to jede plno 1.1MB/s. > jinak kamos mel tydle posledni takze dalsi verze uz v nich nebude... > myslis ze by mohl pomoci jako stineni nalepit zevnitr treba alobal? > Alobal by mozna nejak pomohl, ale pokud uvazujete o stineni, radsi bych volil celou plechovou krabicku tak, jak je to v navodu na strankach. Na druhou stranu znam lidi, kteri bez problemu pouzivaji plastove boxy. Je to na Vas, ale osobne bych to zakrytoval do kovu. Hodne zdaru pri dalsi stavbe JM > s p. Petrkr > > Jabber: petrkr at freelom.net > > > On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:18:47 +0100, anMic wrote: > >> Pekne fotky. V jakych krabickach mate ten twister? Tvari se to jako >> nejake natrene plastove krabicky od lekarnicky. Kvuli stineni bych >> doporucil dat tam kovove. >> >> Jan Matyas >> >> Petr Kracik napsal(a): >>> Zdravim >>> taky sem se pustil do stavby... zatim mam ale jen elektorniku, mechaniku >>> me slibil kamarad, avsak jeste se mu do toho nejak nechce >>> foto z "prubezne" stavby jsou na http://freelom.net/ronja/ >>> >>> s p. Petrkr >>> >>> Jabbrr: petrkr at freelom.net >>> > > > From petrkr at freelom.net Tue Nov 28 18:31:39 2006 From: petrkr at freelom.net (Petr Kracik) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:31:39 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] RONJA v lomnici n pop In-Reply-To: <456C555F.7060508@fmg.sk> References: <4569E897.1080500@fmg.sk> <456C555F.7060508@fmg.sk> Message-ID: Jasny, kdyby to nejak moc chtelo zlobit,, muzu to zkusit,, pripadne pak az predelat do te kovove... jinak ohledne optiky,, jake pouzivate lupy? resp kde schanet,, podotykam ze do praglu cestu nejak kolem nemam,,, 130mm sem koukal ze se pouzivaj.. je tam nejak dane kolik ma mit dioptrii a podobne nejake vlastnosti? s p. Petrkr Jabber: petrkr na freelom.net On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:27:27 +0100, anMic wrote: > Petr Kracik napsal(a): >> Jo tvari se to dobre... jsou to opravdu nejake krabicky od lekarnicek... >> jako velikost je tak akorat.... uvidime jak to bude slapat... >> zatim co sem testovala tak na ten 1-2m to jede plno 1.1MB/s. >> jinak kamos mel tydle posledni takze dalsi verze uz v nich nebude... >> myslis ze by mohl pomoci jako stineni nalepit zevnitr treba alobal? >> > > Alobal by mozna nejak pomohl, ale pokud uvazujete o stineni, radsi bych > volil celou plechovou krabicku tak, jak je to v navodu na strankach. > > Na druhou stranu znam lidi, kteri bez problemu pouzivaji plastove boxy. > Je to na Vas, ale osobne bych to zakrytoval do kovu. > > Hodne zdaru pri dalsi stavbe > > JM > > >> s p. Petrkr >> >> Jabber: petrkr na freelom.net >> >> >> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:18:47 +0100, anMic wrote: >> >>> Pekne fotky. V jakych krabickach mate ten twister? Tvari se to jako >>> nejake natrene plastove krabicky od lekarnicky. Kvuli stineni bych >>> doporucil dat tam kovove. >>> >>> Jan Matyas >>> >>> Petr Kracik napsal(a): >>>> Zdravim >>>> taky sem se pustil do stavby... zatim mam ale jen elektorniku, >>>> mechaniku >>>> me slibil kamarad, avsak jeste se mu do toho nejak nechce >>>> foto z "prubezne" stavby jsou na http://freelom.net/ronja/ >>>> >>>> s p. Petrkr >>>> >>>> Jabbrr: petrkr na freelom.net >>>> >> >> >> > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From clock at twibright.com Tue Nov 28 18:50:04 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:50:04 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Making the instructions easier Message-ID: <20061128185003.GA21523@kestrel.twibright.com> Do you have an idea how the Ronja instructions could be made easier? I wrote a list of couple of tricks I already use in the instructions to make them easier: http://ronja.twibright.com/easy.php Do you think it's true what I am writing on that page? People who already built Ronja - which parts of the instructions were easy and which were difficult? CL< From clock at twibright.com Tue Nov 28 19:07:48 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:07:48 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] RONJA v lomnici n pop In-Reply-To: <456C555F.7060508@fmg.sk> References: <4569E897.1080500@fmg.sk> <456C555F.7060508@fmg.sk> Message-ID: <20061128190747.GA4108@kestrel.twibright.com> On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 04:27:27PM +0100, anMic wrote: > Petr Kracik napsal(a): > > Jo tvari se to dobre... jsou to opravdu nejake krabicky od lekarnicek... > > jako velikost je tak akorat.... uvidime jak to bude slapat... > > zatim co sem testovala tak na ten 1-2m to jede plno 1.1MB/s. > > jinak kamos mel tydle posledni takze dalsi verze uz v nich nebude... > > myslis ze by mohl pomoci jako stineni nalepit zevnitr treba alobal? > > > > Alobal by mozna nejak pomohl, ale pokud uvazujete o stineni, radsi bych > volil celou plechovou krabicku tak, jak je to v navodu na strankach. Aluminium foil would help if it could be connected with a good contact along the crack. But this is not possible. The gap causes the shielding to be inefficient. It also needs to be connected with the ground of the circuit otherwise it is also inefficient. > > Na druhou stranu znam lidi, kteri bez problemu pouzivaji plastove boxy. > Je to na Vas, ale osobne bych to zakrytoval do kovu. Yes doing it according to the instructions is the easiest way. The box is done quickly, thanks to the drilling template. If you cannot find the tin plated steel, you should be able to get a box made from it in IKEA easily. CL< > > Hodne zdaru pri dalsi stavbe > > JM > > > > s p. Petrkr > > > > Jabber: petrkr at freelom.net > > > > > > On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:18:47 +0100, anMic wrote: > > > >> Pekne fotky. V jakych krabickach mate ten twister? Tvari se to jako > >> nejake natrene plastove krabicky od lekarnicky. Kvuli stineni bych > >> doporucil dat tam kovove. > >> > >> Jan Matyas > >> > >> Petr Kracik napsal(a): > >>> Zdravim > >>> taky sem se pustil do stavby... zatim mam ale jen elektorniku, mechaniku > >>> me slibil kamarad, avsak jeste se mu do toho nejak nechce > >>> foto z "prubezne" stavby jsou na http://freelom.net/ronja/ > >>> > >>> s p. Petrkr > >>> > >>> Jabbrr: petrkr at freelom.net > >>> > > > > > > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Tue Nov 28 19:11:39 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:11:39 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] RONJA v lomnici n pop In-Reply-To: References: <4569E897.1080500@fmg.sk> <456C555F.7060508@fmg.sk> Message-ID: <20061128191139.GB4108@kestrel.twibright.com> On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 07:31:39PM +0100, Petr Kracik wrote: > Jasny, kdyby to nejak moc chtelo zlobit,, muzu to zkusit,, pripadne pak az > predelat do te kovove... It shouldn't work worse. It may be sensitive when you turn on a light or a vacuum cleaner. It can also interfere with radio or TV. It will send more electrosmog into your body. > > jinak ohledne optiky,, jake pouzivate lupy? resp kde schanet,, podotykam > ze do praglu cestu nejak kolem nemam,,, > 130mm sem koukal ze se pouzivaj.. je tam nejak dane kolik ma mit dioptrii > a podobne nejake vlastnosti? The number of dioptries is not much important. Loupes are always in some reasonable range. If the number of dioptries (bound to focal length) is different, you have to shift the end of the pipe together with the focus sliders. CL< > > s p. Petrkr > > Jabber: petrkr at freelom.net > > > > On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:27:27 +0100, anMic wrote: > > > Petr Kracik napsal(a): > >> Jo tvari se to dobre... jsou to opravdu nejake krabicky od lekarnicek... > >> jako velikost je tak akorat.... uvidime jak to bude slapat... > >> zatim co sem testovala tak na ten 1-2m to jede plno 1.1MB/s. > >> jinak kamos mel tydle posledni takze dalsi verze uz v nich nebude... > >> myslis ze by mohl pomoci jako stineni nalepit zevnitr treba alobal? > >> > > > > Alobal by mozna nejak pomohl, ale pokud uvazujete o stineni, radsi bych > > volil celou plechovou krabicku tak, jak je to v navodu na strankach. > > > > Na druhou stranu znam lidi, kteri bez problemu pouzivaji plastove boxy. > > Je to na Vas, ale osobne bych to zakrytoval do kovu. > > > > Hodne zdaru pri dalsi stavbe > > > > JM > > > > > >> s p. Petrkr > >> > >> Jabber: petrkr at freelom.net > >> > >> > >> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:18:47 +0100, anMic wrote: > >> > >>> Pekne fotky. V jakych krabickach mate ten twister? Tvari se to jako > >>> nejake natrene plastove krabicky od lekarnicky. Kvuli stineni bych > >>> doporucil dat tam kovove. > >>> > >>> Jan Matyas > >>> > >>> Petr Kracik napsal(a): > >>>> Zdravim > >>>> taky sem se pustil do stavby... zatim mam ale jen elektorniku, > >>>> mechaniku > >>>> me slibil kamarad, avsak jeste se mu do toho nejak nechce > >>>> foto z "prubezne" stavby jsou na http://freelom.net/ronja/ > >>>> > >>>> s p. Petrkr > >>>> > >>>> Jabbrr: petrkr at freelom.net > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Tue Nov 28 19:15:43 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:15:43 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Different focal length Message-ID: <20061128191543.GA11725@kestrel.twibright.com> Sometimes the loupes have different focal length. Now I see the instructions are too complicated when you have a lens of a different focal length. I put into a todo list that this should be rewritten so an offset against nominal focal length will be defined and added in some places. CL< From clock at twibright.com Tue Nov 28 19:24:02 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:24:02 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] RONJA v lomnici n pop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061128192402.GA20571@kestrel.twibright.com> On Sun, Nov 26, 2006 at 08:06:40PM +0100, Petr Kracik wrote: > Zdravim > taky sem se pustil do stavby... zatim mam ale jen elektorniku, mechaniku > me slibil kamarad, avsak jeste se mu do toho nejak nechce > foto z "prubezne" stavby jsou na http://freelom.net/ronja/ Muzu pouzit nejaky fotky pod GFDL do galerie? Diky, CL< > > s p. Petrkr > > Jabbrr: petrkr at freelom.net > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From petrkr at freelom.net Tue Nov 28 19:34:02 2006 From: petrkr at freelom.net (Petr Kracik) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:34:02 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] RONJA v lomnici n pop In-Reply-To: <20061128192402.GA20571@kestrel.twibright.com> References: <20061128192402.GA20571@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:24:02 +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > Muzu pouzit nejaky fotky pod GFDL do galerie? Diky, > CL< Ja myslim ze urcite,, jestli jsou nejake pouzitelne :) > Which parts of the instructions did you find easy and which difficult? > CL< Jestli tuto otazku si prekladam dobre,,, tak asi nejtezsi bylo Rxo ;) opravdu v 1 cloveku a trafopajkou docela zahul... a asi nejjednodussi byl twister do tistaku... a s instrukcema stavebnima predpokladam,,, no ja proste vzal schema a podle toho cca jel... u Txa sem tusim pouzil trochu ten "poradnik" jak pajet co driv a co pozdeji,, jinak sem jel podle schematu a podle fotek z jinych Tx/Rx sry ze ti to nenapisu ang.. ale to je to posledni co bych asi ted zvladnul, poskladat gramaticky dobre vetu :) s p. Petrkr Jabber: petrkr na freelom.net -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From anmic at fmg.sk Tue Nov 28 20:30:01 2006 From: anmic at fmg.sk (anMic) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:30:01 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] RONJA v lomnici n pop In-Reply-To: References: <4569E897.1080500@fmg.sk> <456C555F.7060508@fmg.sk> Message-ID: <456C9C49.7030403@fmg.sk> Petr Kracik napsal(a): > Jasny, kdyby to nejak moc chtelo zlobit,, muzu to zkusit,, pripadne pak az > predelat do te kovove... > > jinak ohledne optiky,, jake pouzivate lupy? resp kde schanet,, podotykam > ze do praglu cestu nejak kolem nemam,,, Pouzivam 90mm lupy vietnamske vyroby. Daji se koupit za peknou cenu 19,- v Brne na Milady Horakove ve vietnamskem shopu s nejakym strasnym nazvem, ktery jsem si nezapamatoval. 130mm lupy bohuzel nemaji; odmitli mi je objednat, i kdyz jsem nabidl, ze vezmu vetsi pocet. JM > 130mm sem koukal ze se pouzivaj.. je tam nejak dane kolik ma mit dioptrii > a podobne nejake vlastnosti? > > s p. Petrkr > > Jabber: petrkr at freelom.net > > > > On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:27:27 +0100, anMic wrote: > >> Petr Kracik napsal(a): >>> Jo tvari se to dobre... jsou to opravdu nejake krabicky od lekarnicek... >>> jako velikost je tak akorat.... uvidime jak to bude slapat... >>> zatim co sem testovala tak na ten 1-2m to jede plno 1.1MB/s. >>> jinak kamos mel tydle posledni takze dalsi verze uz v nich nebude... >>> myslis ze by mohl pomoci jako stineni nalepit zevnitr treba alobal? >>> >> Alobal by mozna nejak pomohl, ale pokud uvazujete o stineni, radsi bych >> volil celou plechovou krabicku tak, jak je to v navodu na strankach. >> >> Na druhou stranu znam lidi, kteri bez problemu pouzivaji plastove boxy. >> Je to na Vas, ale osobne bych to zakrytoval do kovu. >> >> Hodne zdaru pri dalsi stavbe >> >> JM >> >> >>> s p. Petrkr >>> >>> Jabber: petrkr at freelom.net >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:18:47 +0100, anMic wrote: >>> >>>> Pekne fotky. V jakych krabickach mate ten twister? Tvari se to jako >>>> nejake natrene plastove krabicky od lekarnicky. Kvuli stineni bych >>>> doporucil dat tam kovove. >>>> >>>> Jan Matyas >>>> >>>> Petr Kracik napsal(a): >>>>> Zdravim >>>>> taky sem se pustil do stavby... zatim mam ale jen elektorniku, >>>>> mechaniku >>>>> me slibil kamarad, avsak jeste se mu do toho nejak nechce >>>>> foto z "prubezne" stavby jsou na http://freelom.net/ronja/ >>>>> >>>>> s p. Petrkr >>>>> >>>>> Jabbrr: petrkr at freelom.net >>>>> >>> >>> > > > From jbohac at jikos.cz Tue Nov 28 21:05:59 2006 From: jbohac at jikos.cz (Jirka Bohac) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:05:59 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Making the instructions easier In-Reply-To: <20061128185003.GA21523@kestrel.twibright.com> References: <20061128185003.GA21523@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: <20061128210559.GA2506@twin.jikos.cz> Hi all, > Do you have an idea how the Ronja instructions could be made easier? when I first studied the Ronja manual 4 years ago, there used to be a couple of rather ugly ;-) hand drawn pictures which made it obvious at first sight what the individual Ronja modules were. IIRC there was something like a picture of a PC, a short cable going to the AUI, two coax cables going to the tubular heads and the RX/TX modules. Roughly something like this: ---- _______ ' ` ___________ _ | | 50ohm coax, 30m max __|_[RX] / /__ | |_ received | | _____________________/__|________/ \ |_| beam `_______' _______ / / ___________ max 1m TP |Twister|/ 50ohm coax, 30m max \ ___________ _ | |------------|_______|------------------------|--[TX] / _| | __\ transmitted |___________| |________/ |_| / beam PC with a RX and TX 10baseT-FD NIC tubular heads ---- The whole website has improved significantly since (great work, thanx!), but this picture has disappeared in the process (or at least it is not anywhere I could find it). Although I think it is one of the first things a potentioal Ronja builder would appreciate to see. It immediatelly gave me the idea what modules Ronja consisted of how they were interconnected. I remember myself explaining these very basics to complete ronja newbies at least five times. A single picture like this at the beginnig of each model's description would make it obvious for everyone. > People who already built Ronja - which parts of the instructions were easy and > which were difficult? All the instructions are easy. Although I prefer not to follow the mechanical instructions -- I find it more thrilling to experiment, and I feel confident in doing so. I have always followed the electronics instructions as I don't understand how it works at all and would not be able to improve it/experiment with it in any way. You might want to emphasise that the mechanics is _very_ time consuming to build. Much more than the elctronics. I know of quite a lot of builders who eagerly built working electronics and never found time to finish the mechanics. Poor RX/TX/AUI/Twister modules waiting in the drawers just to get to Silicon Heaven one day ;-) Jirka From jdb at lartmaker.nl Tue Nov 28 21:30:42 2006 From: jdb at lartmaker.nl (J.D. Bakker) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:30:42 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Making the instructions easier In-Reply-To: <20061128185003.GA21523@kestrel.twibright.com> References: <20061128185003.GA21523@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: >Do you have an idea how the Ronja instructions could be made easier? Two related points: - The structuring of the instructions makes it very inconvenient to find specific things. Not every user will find it convenient to follow the path you force them to take. For example, I have often looked for particular parts of the instructions, such as the BOM for the twister2, and found it very frustrating to have to hunt through different sections. If you must retain the current structure, I would suggest you make the 'Contents' pages (like http://ronja.twibright.com/tetrapolis/) more verbose [I see you have done some restructuring since I last looked, but I would still suggest adding more info to the 'Contents'-page] - Similarly, you may want to add basic navigation buttons on the top and bottom of all build pages. A page like http://ronja.twibright.com/twister2/tools.php might include links such as 'Back - to materials', 'Forward - to PCB manufacture' and 'Up - to (Building the) Ronja Twister2'. JDB. -- LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From clock at twibright.com Wed Nov 29 11:36:36 2006 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:36:36 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Making the instructions easier In-Reply-To: References: <20061128185003.GA21523@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: <20061129113636.GB16674@kestrel.twibright.com> On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 10:30:42PM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > >Do you have an idea how the Ronja instructions could be made easier? > > Two related points: > > - The structuring of the instructions makes it very inconvenient to > find specific things. Not every user will find it convenient to > follow the path you force them to take. For example, I have often > looked for particular parts of the instructions, such as the BOM for > the twister2, and found it very frustrating to have to hunt through > different sections. If you must retain the current structure, I would > suggest you make the 'Contents' pages (like > http://ronja.twibright.com/tetrapolis/) more verbose [I see you have > done some restructuring since I last looked, but I would still > suggest adding more info to the 'Contents'-page] I don't have to retain the current structure. It could be changed but it would probably take a lot of time, depending on how systemic change it would be. Now I got an idea about the "Models" and "Modules" on the title page. If you see "models" and "modules", you have to max out your brain to grab these abstract concepts, figure out the subtle difference between those two almost identical words, and figure out if these abstract concepts encompass the real thing (Twister) you are looking for. What about replacing Models with "Models - Tetrapolis, Inferno, ... where Tetrapolis, Inferno and ... would be links and Modules with Modules - Twister2, RX, TX, infra RX, ... and do the same with the contents pages like http://ronja.twibright.com/tetrapolis/ ? Any suggestion what more could be added to those http://ronja.twibright.com/tetrapolis/ -style content pages? > > - Similarly, you may want to add basic navigation buttons on the top > and bottom of all build pages. A page like > http://ronja.twibright.com/twister2/tools.php might include links > such as 'Back - to materials', 'Forward - to PCB manufacture' and 'Up > - to (Building the) Ronja Twister2'. Such navigation is a bit confusing for me personally. You have multiple routes to the same destination. Does it have any more benefits than that it spares one hit of a back button? CL< > > JDB. > -- > LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. > http://www.lartmaker.nl/ > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From jdb at lartmaker.nl Wed Nov 29 11:44:35 2006 From: jdb at lartmaker.nl (J.D. Bakker) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:44:35 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Making the instructions easier In-Reply-To: <20061129113636.GB16674@kestrel.twibright.com> References: <20061128185003.GA21523@kestrel.twibright.com> <20061129113636.GB16674@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: >On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 10:30:42PM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: > > - Similarly, you may want to add basic navigation buttons on the top >> and bottom of all build pages. A page like >> http://ronja.twibright.com/twister2/tools.php might include links >> such as 'Back - to materials', 'Forward - to PCB manufacture' and 'Up >> - to (Building the) Ronja Twister2'. > >Such navigation is a bit confusing for me personally. You have multiple routes >to the same destination. Does it have any more benefits than that it spares >one hit of a back button? I find that it makes scanning for specific information much faster, yes. JDB. -- LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From kubajz at kbx.cz Wed Nov 29 22:04:38 2006 From: kubajz at kbx.cz (Jakub Sykora) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:04:38 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Making the instructions easier In-Reply-To: <20061129113636.GB16674@kestrel.twibright.com> References: <20061128185003.GA21523@kestrel.twibright.com> <20061129113636.GB16674@kestrel.twibright.com> Message-ID: <456E03F6.7020507@kbx.cz> What about replacing Models with Ronja Models? Ordinary reader asks Models of what? What models? Adding an hyphen with model names is a good idea indeed. If you would like to confuse readers at maximum, you can use Ronja Models' Modules or maybe better Ronja Models'n'Modules and mix the contents together. But I think this is hell highway... K Karel Kulhavy wrote: > On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 10:30:42PM +0100, J.D. Bakker wrote: >>> Do you have an idea how the Ronja instructions could be made easier? >> Two related points: >> >> - The structuring of the instructions makes it very inconvenient to >> find specific things. Not every user will find it convenient to >> follow the path you force them to take. For example, I have often >> looked for particular parts of the instructions, such as the BOM for >> the twister2, and found it very frustrating to have to hunt through >> different sections. If you must retain the current structure, I would >> suggest you make the 'Contents' pages (like >> http://ronja.twibright.com/tetrapolis/) more verbose [I see you have >> done some restructuring since I last looked, but I would still >> suggest adding more info to the 'Contents'-page] > > I don't have to retain the current structure. It could be changed but it > would probably take a lot of time, depending on how systemic change it would > be. > > Now I got an idea about the "Models" and "Modules" on the title page. If you > see "models" and "modules", you have to max out your brain to grab these > abstract concepts, figure out the subtle difference between those two almost > identical words, and figure out if these abstract concepts encompass the real > thing (Twister) you are looking for. > > What about replacing Models with "Models - Tetrapolis, Inferno, ... where > Tetrapolis, Inferno and ... would be links > and Modules with Modules - Twister2, RX, TX, infra RX, ... > > and do the same with the contents pages like > http://ronja.twibright.com/tetrapolis/ ? > > Any suggestion what more could be added to those http://ronja.twibright.com/tetrapolis/ -style > content pages? > >> - Similarly, you may want to add basic navigation buttons on the top >> and bottom of all build pages. A page like >> http://ronja.twibright.com/twister2/tools.php might include links >> such as 'Back - to materials', 'Forward - to PCB manufacture' and 'Up >> - to (Building the) Ronja Twister2'. > > Such navigation is a bit confusing for me personally. You have multiple routes > to the same destination. Does it have any more benefits than that it spares > one hit of a back button? > > CL< >> JDB. >> -- >> LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. >> http://www.lartmaker.nl/ >> >> -- >> Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com >> Ronja na lists.pointless.net >> http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > -- Jakub S?kora email: kubajz na kbx.cz <') ICQ: 68976632 ( =- mobil: +420 777 594 201 ''